Posted on 01/05/2002 11:55:52 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
PART 1
I contend that anti-Catholicism is almost (but not quite) essential for Protestants, in order to justify their own very existence. On the other hand, I am not an "anti-Protestant." I say that you are Christians; you say I'm not, therefore there is no logical symmetry here. I'm a seriously ecumenical Catholic who does, however, criticize Protestants as rebellious sons within the family, not enemies. You might call me a Catholic "polemicist" or "controversialist," but not an anti-Protestant, at least according to my objective definition of terms.
If merely disagreeing with Protestant positions makes me "anti-Protestant," then the denominations would have so many "anti-Lutherans," "anti-Arminians," "anti-pentecostals," etc. as to be utterly countless. With me, it's a family squabble and in-house fight, whereas you are taking on the foreign infidels, whose views are well-nigh worthless and contemptible. This leads to two entirely different attitudes, which may explain why you continually rip our character and motives, while we try to stick to the arguments, to the extent that your diatribes and jeremiads against us (and patience) allow.
Secondly, I would say that the "anti-Catholic" position, which maintains that Protestantism is Christian while Catholicism is not, is self-defeating, incoherent, and intellectually dishonest, if thought through properly (which is rarely the case). I never had this outlook as a Protestant for these very reasons. Among the many insuperable difficulties of anti-Catholicism:
1) The Canon of the Bible was determined by the Catholic Church. Thus, sola Scriptura necessarily requires a Tradition and Catholic (conciliar and papal) authority - not to mention the preservation of Bible manuscripts by monks.
2) At what moment did Catholicism become apostate? At John's death? In 313? With Gregory the Great and the ascendancy of papal power? In the "Dark Ages" of c.800-1100? With the Inquisition or Crusades? Or at the Council of Trent? And how can anyone know for sure when?
3) 23,000 denominations and the scandalous organizational anarchy, schism, and theological relativism inherent therein virtually disproves Protestantism in and of itself.
4) Protestantism has only been around for 483 years!
5) Protestantism inconsistently and dishonestly appeals selectively to Catholic Church Fathers such as (above all) St. Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Jerome, St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Justin Martyr (and also later Catholics such as St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Thomas a Kempis).
6) Likewise, it inconsistently appeals to Church Councils which it likes (generally the first four) and ignores the rest, on questionable theological and ecclesiological grounds.
7) Development of doctrine is accepted to an extent, but then incoherently rejected where it leads to un-Protestant conclusions. This is largely what made me a Catholic, after reading Newman's Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.
If indeed Catholics are Christians, then your falsehoods about our beliefs violate several clear biblical injunctions, such as, "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Thus we are inexorably brought back to square one: What is a Christian?, Is sola fide the gospel?, Is sola Scriptura the eleventh commandment ("Thou shalt have no authority except Scripture")?, Is sacramentalism idolatrous and Pelagian?, etc. But, to stress once again, we Catholics - notwithstanding harsh Trent language - still officially regard Protestants as our "brothers in Christ," whereas so many of you tragically regard us as non-Christians.
I've never seen so much anger and hatred in my life and this is from those who profess to know Christ. They call me a Pharisee and would if they could condemn my very soul to hell. They obviously missed the verse in the Bible about loving your neighbor as yourself.
Thanks for your timely and informative reply.
Spare me, Miss Scarlet! Who is fulfilling the commandment: The one who congregrates with the false religions of the world and prays with them for peace instead of sharing the Gospel (thus judging them fit only for hell and hating them under the guise of love), or the one who declares a false gospel as such and shares the testominy of the saints to those under the delusion that the false gospel is true?
You are going to make the girl cry woody, how unkind of you!
You should show the same mercy the pope shows and pretend that it just doesn't matter....
I've never seen so much anger and hatred in my life and this is from those who profess to know Christ. They call me a Pharisee and would if they could condemn my very soul to hell. They obviously missed the verse in the Bible about loving your neighbor as yourself.Woody is among the aggressive Calvinists posting here. (Woody seems sometimes to be trying to drive everyone else away.) It is important to know this so you don't let his rudeness tar all Protestants, or even all Calvinists. His depravity (that is a Calvinist term) is showing. He does indeed post in a depraved manner.
One day Woody will come to a knowledge of the love and goodness of God. Right now, because of the extreme interpretations of John Calvin, taking them to their logical conclusions, he believes God to be a mass of contradiction, a loving God, yes, but impressing the listener more as an awful, hateful, satanic being, dangling sinners over the pit of Hell, into which they will fall with the slightest move of the finger.
There was actually a John Edwards sermon posted here in September that drew such a horrible picture from a fragment of a verse in Deuteronomy about feet slipping. I call it the idolatrous god of Calvinism, because I will not use a capital g to refer to this extreme misunderstanding of what our God is.
Woody does not know God, and does not understand the Bible. But according to what he thinks he knows, he feels obliged, lest he incur the wrath of God (I suppose), to "preach" this way, condemning everyone who disagrees with him.
So long as he has posting privileges here, we will just have to labor with him in a Christian manner as best we can, pushing the abuse button as we see fit.
The teaching of the Catholic Church, as repeated in Pope Pius XII's encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi, is that any non-Catholic (that includes both you and White Mountain) can be saved if (1) he remains non-Catholic through no personal fault or vincible ignorance; (2) he follows the dictates of the religion to which he adheres: and (3) he at all times conforms to the dictates of the Natural Law.Biblical Trinitarian: Repent of this false way and turn to the Lord!
Well, I was born again and called out of God hating paganism.... What should I do?
The best part about him is that he has never made fun of my religion as you have done.
You are a sad person.
God bless you, Woody! Seek the Truth, love the Truth, and hold it tight as you find it!
The funny part of it is, even though they don't agree with each other theologically, they just love to hate the Catholics. It is pretty much all they have in common. It's a bit like trying to take down the tough kid on the block. One of them belongs to some crazy self interpretation (you are your own God there) religion that hasn't existed for more than 100 years and the other one belongs to a religion that says that God predestined some to be saved and some to be doomed! Falls apart with any study at all. Go check out some good sources on John Calvin. With the Fundamentalists, all you have to do is type "Fundamentalist" in a google search and you pretty much come up with hundreds of sites that don't outline their beliefs (they can't cause they figure them out as they go along) but man, on every Fundamentalist site they bash the Catholics - wonder why?
WM..It is only fair to tell these ladies that you deny the trinity..and are working toward being a god with a planet all your own..BEFORE you enlist them as alliesYour claim of fairness doesn't wash, Terry.
You have attributed to me two motives I don't have: what I am supposedly working toward and that I am supposedly enlisting allies.
Before that you claimed that I deny the Trinity, when I have made it quite clear on other threads many times that I believe what the Bible says about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but not the "one substance" or incomprehensibility of the 4th-century creeds which are not part of the Bible, were not written by apostles or prophets, and are not the Word of God.
Your credibility suffers when you are not careful what you say, especially about other people. It is with great reluctance that I said what I did about Woody (and doc earlier, #823), but somebody needs to testify that their aggression is inappropriate and not of God, and I am prepared to defend what I said. When you try to tell other people what their beliefs and motives are, please be more careful, lest you come across as just another attacker who is lifted up in pride.
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