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Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation??
Ask Father Murray Watson ^ | Father Murray

Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa

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Comment #281 Removed by Moderator

To: Hank Kerchief
Here's a definition from a catholic dictionary I have:

Grace: "A biblical and theological term used in a wide variety of ways. According to Catholic teaching, grace is a supernatural gift of God bestowed upon a person with a view to salvation and sanctification. Understood in this sense, there are three kinds of grace: (1) uncreated grace refers to the abiding presence of the Holy Trinity in the souls of the just; (2) created or sanctifying grace is a created sharing or participation in the life of God himself; (3) actual grace is a transient help of God which enlightens the mind and strengthens the will to do good and avoid evil. Grace is given to human beings through the merits of Jesus Christ and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. The principal means of growing in grace are prayer, the sacraments (especially the Eucharist) and good works. Sanctifying grace is lost by the commision of mortal sin."

Heres another: Grace: "A free gift of God to man (and angels), grace is a created sharing or participation in the life of God. It is given to men through the merits of Christ and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It is necessary for salvation. The principal means of grace are the sacraments, prayer and good works.

Sanctyfing or habitual grace makes persons holy and pleasing to God, adopted children of God, members of Christ, temples of the Holy Spirit, heirs of heaven capable of supernaturally meritorious acts. With grace, God gives persons the supernatural virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The sacraments of baptism and penance were instituted to give grace to those who do not have it; the other sacraments, to increase it in those already in the state of grace. The means for growth in holiness, or the increase of grace, are prayer, the sacraments, and good works. Sanctifying grace is lost by the commission of serious sin.

Actual grace is a supernatural help of God which enlightens and strengthens a person to do good and to avoid evil. It is not a permanent quality, like sanctifying grace. It is necessary for the performance of supernatural acts. It can be resisted and refused. Persons in the state of sin are given actual grace to lead them to repentance."

Hope that helps.

282 posted on 01/06/2002 4:02:14 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Hank Kerchief
Heres one more that may explain a bit better. I like it better anyway.

"God, as we have seen, did not give man a merely natural end or destination-a destination which he could attain by the use of his natural powers of understanding and free will. From the very beginning He lifted him up to a share in the life of God, as far as a creature can share it. He destined man to see God face to face and so be happy with Him forever. He made him capable of attaining this destiny by lifting him up to a higher level of life, to a life infinitely above his natural life, to the supernatural life. In other words, God set before His rational creatures from the beginning a supernatural end, and placed them in a supernatural relation to Himself, and thus founded what is called a supernatural order. Since He was not obliged to do this, and since man had no claim to such a destiny, we call this act of God's love and mercy a Grace; that is, a favor or free gift to man. By this grace man is made a sharer in the holiness of God; hence it is called sanctifying (holy making) grace.

The supernatural order is disturbed by sin. It could only be restored by the still greater mystery of the elevation of human nature to a personal union with the Son of God. By His Passion and Death Christ not only gave adequate satisfaction to God for the sins of men, but also restored the supernatural order by gaining for men the power to be made the sons of God and heirs of Heaven. "As many as recieve Him, He gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in His name." (John 1, 12)

283 posted on 01/06/2002 4:13:40 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Thorn11cav
I have been to many Christian bookstores, I've researched many Christian websites. Being a novice apologist I seek out questions and accusations made against the Catholic Church. I've had many discussions with people opposed to Catholicism and answered their questions. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we do not. I point to Church teaching and that is all I can do. I examine the teaching myself and take an honest look at it, I don't consider myself a robot.

As far as the doctrines of the Church, I'd be happy to discuss the biblical basis for any questions you have.

We believe that Jesus founded "the Church" and leads it. I believe this, scripture points it out. I believe that Jesus Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist as He said in the Holy Bible, in all 4 Gospels, and Christ is present in every Catholic Church around the world. Our Church has what is called 'Perpetual Adoration' in which there is always someone at the Church in front of Christ, 24 hours a day. I recieve Christ in Holy Communion, how could I love Jesus any more than I can through the Catholic Church? After all, it is through the priests that Christ becomes present in the Blessed Sacrament.

Peace be with you.

284 posted on 01/06/2002 4:31:39 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Thank you! I sincerely appreciate your cogent and full answer, and the material.

Now, the next question, if you don't mind. The Bible does not really provide a "definition" of grace, but in all the places it is mentioned, there is always implied that it is favor, acceptance, or blessing of God that is provided entirely without merit or deserving, and entirely because of God's mercy, kindness, and "graciousness."

In the Catholic religion there are many things which are proscribed as being "means" to grace. But if grace is wholly unmerited, and there is nothing man can do to get it, how can there be a "means" to grace?

A "means" to grace would make it something that is purchased by certain religious acts or rituals, but of course that would not be grace, would it?

Hank

285 posted on 01/06/2002 4:47:43 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Heres a few thoughts on "works."

"By good works performed in the state of grace we merit:

a) An increase in sanctifying grace. In the parable of the Talents Jesus says: "To every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound" (Matt 25)

b) Eternal salvation: "Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in Heaven." (Matt 5)

C)An increase in the glory in heaven. "Every man shall recieve his own reward according to his own labor" (1 Cor. 3,8)

d)The actual graces necessary to preserve sanctifying grace. "Ask and you shall recieve."

In the Sermon on the Mount Christ demands good works from His followers: the eight Beatitudes, Forgiveness of injuries, chastity in thought, word, and deed, almsgiving, fasting, prayer with right intention. At the end of the Sermon on the Mount Christ expressly declares; "Not every one that saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doth the will of My Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." He cursed the barren fig tree and condemned the servant who had buried his talent. St. James is but echoing the words of his Divine Master when he says: "Even as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." (2,26)

In prayer we offer up our mind to God, by fasting our body; by almsgiving our earthly possessions: by prayer we combat pride; by fasting, sensuality; by almsgiving, avarice-the three great enemies of our souls.

286 posted on 01/06/2002 4:55:51 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Hank Kerchief
I'm not quite sure I'm following your question but I think this answer by St. Augustine may cover it.

"God has become our debtor not as though He has recieved something from us, but because He has promised what pleased Him. It is a different thing when we say to a man, 'You are my debtor because I have given you something,' and when we say to God, 'Give us what Thou hast promised, for we have done what Thou didst command!'

287 posted on 01/06/2002 5:09:15 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Are sacraments good works? Does partaking of the sacraments help anyone but the person doing it? I believe you have to define good works. I don't think sacraments is it. I believe a good work is done without any expectations of getting something back. I believe we will be very surpised when we get to heaven and see what we are rewarded for and what we are not rewarded for. Do you ever wonder why you have some of the blessings you do here on earth? I do. I know I haven't done anything to deserve what I have been blessed with. I just thank God everyday for them, as I am sure you do.

Becky

288 posted on 01/06/2002 5:15:25 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Yes, I do agree, but the Holy Spirit did use men to write the Bible. We believe the Holy Spirit did not only remain with the Apostles.

God did not just use men to write the Bible. He inspired them to write what they did. And he inspired them to write 1 John 5:17. Check it out:)

Becky

289 posted on 01/06/2002 5:22:49 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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Comment #290 Removed by Moderator

To: Cap'n Crunch
and Christ is present in every Catholic Church around the world.

Church in the NT means a called out assembly. It has nothing to do with the building. It is the people. God's people. Christ is present in the form of the Holy Spirit in every believer. He is not locked up in the church building.

Becky

291 posted on 01/06/2002 5:37:23 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SeferKoheleth
Accordingly, Jews can receive Catholic "salvation" in two ways: by observing "OT" law or by faith in Jesus.

Anybody else heard this? Just find it interesting...

I have recently learned about "invincible ignorance" that the catholic church has come up with. This salvation for the Jews may be along that order. It goes like this. Any one who believes in any thing that the catholic church teaches then becomes part of the catholic church. For example, I am a fundalmental bible believer, and reject most of the catholic teachings. But since I do believe I am saved by Jesus Christ, and the chruch teaches that, that makes me a member of the catholic church. I have been assimulated into the catholic church:) IOW's

Becky

292 posted on 01/06/2002 5:43:33 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I believe Cap'n Crunch is referring to the Holy Tabernacles in all the Catholic Churches throughout the world that house the body and blood of Christ, under the guise of bread and wine, in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. I believe he means that Christ is physically present in the Catholic Churches.
293 posted on 01/06/2002 5:48:43 PM PST by Proud2BAmerican
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To: Proud2BAmerican
The Holy Spirit is present inside of believers. Why would you need anything else?

Becky

294 posted on 01/06/2002 5:51:19 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
The sacraments are sensible signs instituted by Christ, by means of which the graces of the Holy Spirit are communicated to us.

The seven sacraments are:(1)Baptism (2) Confirmation (laying on of hands) (3) Holy Eucharist (4) Penance (confession) (5) Extreme Unction (last rites) (6) Holy Orders (7) Matrimony

The name of good works is given to such voluntary actions on the part of man as are in conformity with the will of God, are performed for the love of God, and consequently will be rewarded by God. The good works most pleasing to God are these: Prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Even the most trifling works are pleasing to God if they are done with the intention of promoting His glory.

Virtue consists in proficiency in the practice of good works and the tendency of the will towards what is good, resulting frm persevering excercise.

That is just touching on the subjects, I haven't even scratched the surface. There is much to read and learn. I haven't even brought any scripture passages in for their support, but they are numerous.

My 1 John 5. 17 says "True, all wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly." I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

295 posted on 01/06/2002 5:53:50 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I am so sorry I meant 1 John 2:27. Trying to keep up with two different threads.:)

Becky

296 posted on 01/06/2002 5:57:52 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
The tabernacle, which stands in the middle of the high altar, is made of wood, marble or brass, gilt inside, andlined with white silk curtains. In earlier times it was situated beside, not above the altar. The name of tabernacle, or tent is given to it, from the sacred tent of the Israelites; and the mysterious cloud that accompanied them on their journey, was a type of tabernacle of God in which He dwells with men. A lamp is kept burning continually in the sanctuary before the tabernacle, to indicate the place where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved, and also to symbolize the Light of the world. It is, besides, emblematic of the perpetual adoration the angels pay to the God present upon the altar. In the Temple at Jerusalem there was a candlestick with seven branches in which lights burned continually. Our Divine Lord is thus ever present with mortal men; as He Himself declares "I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt. 28) He is as truly present with us as he is with the saints in heaven; the only difference is that they behold Him face to face, whereas He is hidden from our sight beneath the Eucharistic veils. The manna preserved in the ark was a type of the hidden God present in our tabernacles.

God was present in the Temple, Jesus is present, Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity in the Tabernacle of every Catholic Church, under the sacramental veil.

297 posted on 01/06/2002 6:11:03 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
The Holy Spirit is present inside of believers. Why would you need anything else?

Personally, I need the Trinity -- God, Holy Spirit, and Christ.

298 posted on 01/06/2002 6:11:46 PM PST by Proud2BAmerican
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To: Proud2BAmerican
Sigh:)

Becky

299 posted on 01/06/2002 7:14:55 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Thanks for the discussion, but there is no reason to go any further. We don't agree:) God Bless:)

Becky

300 posted on 01/06/2002 7:22:07 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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