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Political Speech Protection for Churches
Freedoms' Alert ^ | Jan 2002 | Duane Motley

Posted on 12/26/2001 5:11:12 PM PST by The Mayor

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To: The Mayor
Jesus said that if our right hand offends then we should cut it off. If the IRS is preventing the free preaching of the gospel including coments on the government etc. then it is time to reject their intervention and their offer of tax exemption. I am opposed to political activism in the name of Jesus as he did not teach that but we cannot on the other hand be silenced when we would expose corruption as John the Baptist did.

The bottom line to this is money. Preachers are afraid of losing their finincial support or tax exemption. We cannot follow God and mammon both.

America's Other Jesus

21 posted on 12/26/2001 7:31:58 PM PST by Raymond Hendrix
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To: Raymond Hendrix
The bottom line to this is money. Preachers are afraid of losing their finincial support or tax exemption. We cannot follow God and mammon both.

First I want to say that on this statement I agree with you 100%. That is one of the biggest problems not only in church but in society as a whole.

22 posted on 12/26/2001 7:44:01 PM PST by The Mayor
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To: Raymond Hendrix
If the IRS is preventing the free preaching of the gospel including coments on the government etc. then it is time to reject their intervention and their offer of tax exemption.

The IRS isn't necessarily preventing the talk about politics they make it so damn confusing pastors are afraid to speak out on political issues in fear of losing exempt status.

I am opposed to political activism in the name of Jesus as he did not teach that

As am I, I abhore it! Can we say Hillary Clinton? Her blantant disreguard of the Law makes me sick!
Jesse Jackson is another. The churches need to speakout on these people.

but we cannot on the other hand be silenced when we would expose corruption as John the Baptist did.

Now that is precisely the point, we all should be John the Baptist. I feel I am in many ways, in politics and in the church.

23 posted on 12/26/2001 7:58:20 PM PST by The Mayor
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To: The Mayor; muawiyah; Arthur McGowan; Paulus Invictus
Hank, you are reading the Bible all wrong. Don't know where you got that nonsense, but it's not in there! If I were you I'd change churches, because whoever taught you that has put you on a one-way trip to perdition and the outer darkness.

Well, somebody has been taught something by someone that very well may lead them to perdition.

Do you believe you have to have some church tell you what the Bible means and what to believe?

John said, 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And Jesus said, John 18:37 "... Jesus answered, ... to this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

Notice, it did not say, the voice, that is the teaching, of a church, theologian, Pope, or any other man.

I listen only the voice of Christ. You may have your church teaching, if you like, but the Bible speaks the truth.

If Christians would obey the Bible injunction to be subject to all the ordinances of government, and not seek special government privilege...

Where does it say that?

Try I Tim. 2:1-3, Titus 3:1&2, I Pet. 2:13-19, Rom. 13:1-7 for starters.

I believe you are honest and will see this is clearly what is taught.

The Bible tells us that we should follow the rules of the government, I beleive we should as long as they are governing in the context of the Bible, being of moral character, I ask who in government fits this description?

Certainly the governments in the days of Christ's earthly ministry were not more moral than today's government, and Jesus plainly taught His desciples it was necessary to pay lawful taxes. Matthew 22:16-21 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

(Also Mark 12, and Luke 20)

Mattehw 17:24-27 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

The Bible clearly teaches that all rulers are the basest of men, and that is by God's appointment. Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

So if Jesus taught it was right to pay taxes, it had nothing to do with the morality of the rulers.

Men always seek a way to get around what God demands as righteousness. One of the most common excuses is the wickedness of others.

When Christians learn to trust in God, and not the State, they will find they have both the freedom and power to do God's will.

Hank

24 posted on 12/26/2001 8:17:13 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hagrid
Historically, the black churches have been the main hub of political activism in black communities. Many black pastors have been more political and civil-rights proponents rather than proclaimers of the gospel or expositors of Scripture.

This is not true of "every" black church or pastor, but think about Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Malcom X (muslim), Louis Farakahn, the list goes on.

25 posted on 12/26/2001 8:35:24 PM PST by good1
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: The Mayor
Christian churches are terribly confused regarding this matter. The fact is churches are ALREADY tax exempt under the Constitution. The filing as a 501 (c) 3, non-profit corporation does not give them any more exemption than they naturally have. Filing as a non-profit restricts them from doing any thing in violation of this charter. The filing does not benefit the church it merely permits doners to deduct their donations from their income tax.

The "reverends" of the left such as Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton probably do not file as non-profits and that is why they can freely operate in the political sphere. Churches should cancel their non-profit 501 (c) 3 filing. Then they will be free to preach whatever they please. Then they will be free

27 posted on 12/26/2001 9:03:44 PM PST by VERITAS25
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: Hank Kerchief
If Christians would obey the Bible injunction to be subject to all the ordinances of government, and not seek special government privilege there would be no, "freedom of speech," issue.

Last I looked 502C3 was a federal law. By signing in under it you are being subject to the Government. It was created to keep the government from ruling on who could be what by setting tax levels high on politically incorrect groups and low on PC groups.

So long as churches seek tax-exempt status, they should not be allowed to say anything of a political nature, since their politics are wrong.

A perfect example of why tax exemption is necessary. You have decreed that their politics are wrong and have also issued your executive decision that Churches have no right to speak based on their tax status. This is what petty tax bozos were trying to do to the Church when the law was put in place. Like all laws, the morality of the people that enforce them is the only thing protecting the law. For example, the separation of Church and State law was to prevent Government from making any law dictating what Churches could and could not do. Didn't take long for the Government to re-write that to power them to become the final source on just exactly what Churches could and could not do.

30 posted on 12/27/2001 2:20:25 AM PST by American in Israel
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To: alien2; American in Israel; Faith_j
Please let me make one thing clear. The Bible does not say the "men" should pay taxes. If you read even the passages I quoted, you will see Jesus clearly spoke privately to His disciples about this matter.

Personally, I believe all taxes are nothing more than theft, by a gang that under any other name (than government) would be called thugs. So long as most people believe most people should rule and most people like this arrangement, taxes will continue, and Christians have to decide how God determines they should deal with the situation as Christians.

The language of the religious in this matter is very deceiving. How, exactly, does one "tax religion?" Does a "religion," own property or make moeny, or is it people, who happen to have a religion, or organizations of people with a certain religions. Why should some people, some organizations, and some property be treated differently under the law than others, simply because the people involved have a certain religion?

The problem is that men have confused religion with organizations. Freedom of religion is not freedom to use religion to form organizations and buy property which is then be used to further political and financial purposes tax free while other people with the same kind of property and organizations, not calling them religions, must pay taxes on them. Freedom of religion is freedom to believe, worship, write and speak about what you believe, not freedom to have fanancial and political advantage over those without religion.

Maybe if the property and organization really are religious in nature they should not be taxed, but, if they aren't, there is going to be trouble, and others, especially those of a different faith, or none, are not going to see it the same way. The Biblical admonition to pay taxes was to Christians, to save them trouble, and so they would be the cause of no offense. This is exactly the meaning of the words.

Hank

31 posted on 12/27/2001 4:44:57 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: RnMomof7; ouroboros; Snuffington; Inspector Harry Callahan; Greg 4TCP; Loopy; cva66snipe; Askel5...
Just a thought...
What if churches began to simply renounce their tax-exempt status? For now that might be the best way to combat this attack on freedom of speech. Personally, I would like to see the IRS abolished and the entire federal tax system revert back to its pre-1913 state.

The 16th Amendment needs to be repealed:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
As it stands, there is nothing limiting the government in its power to tax. Nothing. The sky's the limit. While we're at it, let's repeal the 17th Amendment and give back to the state legislatures their rightful representation in the Senate.
32 posted on 12/27/2001 5:32:36 AM PST by sheltonmac
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To: The Mayor
Lawmakers could use a little reminder: Religious-Tolerance Act Birthplace
33 posted on 12/27/2001 5:39:17 AM PST by Ligeia
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To: JD86
Related link here
34 posted on 12/27/2001 5:41:26 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: The Mayor
None of the black churches worry about restrictions.
35 posted on 12/27/2001 5:43:04 AM PST by Cautor
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To: The Mayor
Right on the money! (pardon the pun). Our churches should pay their taxes and speak their mind about maybe, doing away with income taxes!!!!!!!!
36 posted on 12/27/2001 5:49:36 AM PST by AmericanDave
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To: The Mayor
Thank you for this important post. bookmarked bump - read and comment more later.
37 posted on 12/27/2001 5:59:29 AM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: The Mayor
I vote that the church simply give up her tax-exempt status Then she can do as she feels she must as called by G-d and ignore the laws of man.

Sure, I'd lose a pretty big deduction. But it would be worth it.

Shalom.

38 posted on 12/27/2001 6:07:24 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
I vote that the church simply give up her tax-exempt status Then she can do as she feels she must as called by G-d and ignore the laws of man.

Exactly!

hank

39 posted on 12/27/2001 6:11:04 AM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: sheltonmac; The Mayor
sheltonmac: Thanks for the Ping J


The confusion about what churches can and cannot do, without violating their tax exempt status dates back to 1954. Senator Lyndon Johnson inserted the political ban in Section 501(c)3 of the IRS code in a floor amendment to the revenue act of 1954. No one held hearings or developed Congressional records for the need for this ban.

Leave it to good 'ol Lyndon BS Johnson.....
IMHO he never did this country a bit of good!
Btw, I'm a native Texan and I want everybody to know:
I Voted For Goldwater!
(don't get me started about johnson... I hated the sorry SOB)
40 posted on 12/27/2001 6:11:11 AM PST by Fiddlstix
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