Andrew Sullivan: Spreading the greater lie about Israel

The Sunday Times ^ | December 23, 2001 | Andrew Sullivan

[LoisHunt]

thats idiotic. How am I blaming Israel to say I don't want to die for Israel or see someone I love die for Israel? Same goes for every other place in the world that doesn't rationally impact US interests. I felt the same way about bombing Kosovo.

[LoisHunt]

Your way lies madness. How many religious disputes over land might there be in the world? Why should Americans sort out who/which religion has the "right" to that land and then bear the consequences of the other side trying to murder us?

You folks just aren't serious. 19 people with some cause they were willing to die for but which is of absolutely no rational interest to 90% of Americans killed over 3,000 civilians in the US and caused $100 billion of damage. All we can do is retaliate by bombing "terrorist training camps" that are nothing more than desert and a few tires. Where is that going?

[dennisw]

Blame Islam not the Jews of Israel. Have a good new year.

[Catspaw]

It looks like you have some really crappy research skills, if any at all.

I have searched long and hard to figure out how that rumor started, and this is what I have come up with:

Jerusalem Post: "Thousands of Israelis missing near WTC, Pentagon" 9/12/01. Article states: "The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem has so far received the names of 4,000 Israelis believed to have been in the areas of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon at the time of the attack."

New York Times: "Officials Say Number of Those Still Missing May Be Overstated" 9/22/01. Article states: "There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed as dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the towers on business and who was identified and buried." To date, accordingly to the tally, there was 1 Israeli killed in the WTC disaster.

These news articles, along with the famous Odigo message (reported by Ha'aretz and other news media) received by 2 Israelis 2 hours before the attack, and which has not been explained as of this date, has combined, I believe, to contribute to this rumor referred to by Sullivan. And yes, it is circulating vigorously in the Arab world.

Try a google.com search for a number of articles debunking the urban hoax. Snopes.com also debunks this myth.

There's The Lie and the Big Lie. You told both.

[LoisHunt]

And who the heck is blaming the "Jews of Israel?" They're no more and no less to me than their opponents and the same goes for the Hutsis and the Tutsis and everyone else with deep tribal ethnic hatreds of each other that I want no part of and that our government is crazy to risk our lives for. THERE IS NOTHING IN IT FOR US. We have nothing to gain. And it is not for us to judge who God wants to live there, either.

[Catspaw]

And who the heck is blaming the "Jews of Israel?" They're no more and no less to me than their opponents and the same goes for the Hutsis and the Tutsis and everyone else with deep tribal ethnic hatreds of each other that I want no part of and that our government is crazy to risk our lives for. THERE IS NOTHING IN IT FOR US. We have nothing to gain. And it is not for us to judge who God wants to live there, either

Lois, dear, your thought processes are getting a bit addled and you're getting a bit shrill.

Please elaborate on your "And it is not for us to judge who God wants to live there, either." I was unaware that God determined immigration policy. Does the same statement apply to the United States and other countries, or have you just narrowed it down God determining who can live in Israel?

[dennisw]

You are nothing but a shrill shill for the Islamics. THey like what you have to say here being that you are Muslim yourself.

[LoisHunt]

Now you're just paranoid. What did I say that "shilled" for Muslims? I said they were brutal, too. Both sides are brutal to each other. Thats typical of ethnic tribal hatreds. Its blood feud and NONE OF OUR (US) BUSINESS.

[LoisHunt]

I was referring to previous posters who felt it was incumbent upon me to be on the Israel side because of my own religion. I don't know of anything in my religion that says that (Catholic).

[Torie]

or see someone I love die for Israel?

Who might that be? You posted you just don't care a hoot about the region, and who lives and dies, and when, and in what numbers. I just you will continue to say that (I just don't give a damn) if Israel gets in trouble at some point without US support, and in order to avoid going down nukes just about everyone in the area into oblivion, and in the course of that, maybe some nukes get sent out way by somebody.

Btw, just what "tribes" do you give a damn about?

[LoisHunt]

If you're saying we have to maintain a foreign policy out of fear that Israel will unleash nuclear weapons and kill millions in that area and hundreds of thousands of Americans from cancer via the radiation cloud, how is that different than appeasing bin Laden? Americans don't have the right to act in their own interest because we have to fear a descent into nuclear madness from Israel? Thats a new one.

[Torie]

America acting to avoid the nukes flying is in its interests, at least to me. That is real politik. I also don't like genocide, mass slaughter, and forced diasporas, but that is a cultural and moral taste of mine. Yours may differ.

[Torie]

Oh yes, the best way to avoid nukes via Bin Laden is to kill him, his cohorts, and destroy the stuff. We seem to be making some progress on that score. Scratch him from he might get nukes and it worries us club. Others may follow. Stay tuned.

[wooly_mammoth]

If by "against the occupation" you mean returning to the pre-1967 Auschwitz borders with NO guarantee of peace, sacrificing Israeli security by giving Arafat guns and ignoring Hamas suicide bombings for fear of using any violence whatsoever, then I'd place the % a little lower, say about 2-3%-- basically the HaAretz staff and a few dazed out secular Tel Aviv yuppies.

Strong language when your position is the one similar to the Nazi position in 38-39. And, no, your figures are way off. Anywhere from 20-40% of non-arab Israelis are against the occupation non-withstanding your stalinesque spin on the situation.

[dennisw]

Excellent post....... you throwing pearls before swine.