Posted on 12/21/2001 11:34:36 AM PST by onedoug
John, speaking to Jesus, said (Matthew 3) (11) “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (12) His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (13) Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. (14) But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" (15) Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (16) As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. (17) And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matthew 4) (1) Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
As to your concerns about reading Genesis in the lens of Abraham, I choose not to dispute or debate based solely on my opinions. As I am not home and need to take out my Bible to use as reference, my memory does not contain all things within itself, to assist me in seeking the answers. Perhaps, in the meantime, another may answer this specific question with the particularity I cannot do at present.
Well, if one would look through this entire thread they would not see one remark from me pertaining to women teachers. While I have researched many controversial issues in scripture that is not one of them. My only contention is let's get to the bottom of what God was trying to teach us assuming the scripture is inerrant. There are some teachers out there who promote women teachers who do not think God made mistakes. Whether or not I agree with them I do not know because I have not read their works or arguments to the contrary.
If you do not approach scipture with the idea that God does not change then discussing these issues would be very difficult. There are some difficult passages that seem to suggest that God changes, but I hold to the view that given the wealth of scripture that says God is omnicient and unchanging, those few passages which suggest He is not must be interpreted in light of the wealth of passages that clearly state otherwise. We probably will never see eye to eye so allow me to just wish you a Happy New year.
Peter Preaches to a Crowd
14 Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, “Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this.
15 Some of you are saying these people are drunk. It isn’t true! It’s much too early for that. People don’t get drunk by nine o’clock in the morning.
16 No, what you see this morning was predicted centuries ago by the prophet Joel:
18‘In the last days, God said, I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
19 In those days I will pour out my Spirit upon all my servants, men and women alike, and they will prophesy.
And I will cause wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below— blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon will turn bloodred,
before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives.
21 And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
No where in the NT is the idea even hinted the conduct you speak of except by Pauls Lettters. Peter in his letter addressed womens and mans conduct much like Paul but silence in church was not mentioned. It is Pauls teachings. The same Paul who jailed women and children for being Christian earlier. While GOD and Christ are perfect Paul was not. Paul lived under strict Jewish traditions. Paul has some very good messages and sermons so did David and Solomon. Do we not know these men as well as ones who though were wise and blessed of GOD as well did wrong? If you took Pauls teachings as absolutes in this matter the population of the world would have been in danger think about it. Paul thought in the lines marry if you must it's better to be single. That was not GOD's intention that was Pauls personal taste on the matter of marriage. Paul as well as head of the churches he started did have the authority to set it's rules of worship.
There s too much mentioned in the NT in Christ ministry that breaks the tradition of Jewish sex segeration. He as well went against the grain in the respect he taught children. The Jewish leaders thought that women and children didn't even need to know these things. Children were to be a certain age to enter the temple. Women were to be apart from men in the temple. What does Christ do? Teaches them all together everywhere. The temple is in the soul the physical body it's home on this earth.
Futher taking the prophecy of Joel we have to by common sense think if women prophesy would it not be in the church.
But getting back to Joyce Meyer. One thing that some may mistake as a masculine trait is her voice. She was born with it. I knew a woman who talked like her but in church could sing great. If we go by the standards in the church that were custom in the Jewish church we would not hear such good persons like David Ring as well. And I again bring up Joni Erickson Tada a woman who's ministry has changed many lifes for the better through her adversity. Viva this is a quadriplegic who was injured as a teen and paints with her mouth. Her ministry is well past 20 years. Her personal story is amazing to say the least and to the Glory of GOD. Here is her web site.
Women not being allowed to speak in church or teach the Gospel is not New Testament teaching outside of Paul's letters. Look at the fruits of Joni's labors. Warning her hair is also fairly short it is a practial hair style especially for her and those who care for her needs.
Joni is one woman who has brough thousands to Christ and helped perhaps several million more to learn to deal with adversity. Bless her! And may her ministry be needed no more in GODs new kingdom. I understand her type ministry is why I say that. As one of her drawing shows a wheel chair minus the person and a humorous For Sale sign on it.
Correction... in post 42 I suggest that women should not be pastors but teaching women is permitted.
After the creation we see that God was pleased ( Genesis 1:31 ). However, later in Genesis 6 we read "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that I have made them.” [NIV]
This is more like regret or sadness at having a perfect creation desecrated by sin ( man's doing, not God's ). I think you get into the freewill of man when you see God change His mind.
If we look at the story of the Golden Calf in Exodus 32 we read that God was so unhappy with his ‘stiff necked people’ that, in verse10, the Lord said to Moses, “Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” [NIV]
But Moses pleaded for his people and finally God said to Moses (v14): Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[NIV]
If we continue on with the story of the errant Israelites we find that God is still unhappy with them. In Exodus 33:3 God says: “Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.” [NIV]
God is saying that He might not be able to control Himself because of the attitude of the Israelites. The freewill He has given us as the tool so that we can love Him as sons and daughters can also be turned against Him – it is a two-edged sword. With gifts like freewill comes responsibility. One cannot flourish without the other.
God is not going to manipulate us. He can say to us “I would like you to donate a certain sum of money for missionary work” but if we choose to ignore that ‘small still voice’ then God will get someone else to supply that need. Maybe you were His first choice but your own inaction had led God to find someone else.
Do you ever wonder how many times God had a task for you and you didn’t listen carefully? Do you ever think of lost opportunities to help someone find the Lord? Have you ever thought that maybe you should speak to someone about Jesus and then failed to do so, only to find out later that someone else led that person to the Lord?
God must change His mind because He is dealing with self-centred mortals who often get so wrapped up in their own petty problems that they neglect to listen to God. Because of our inability to be led, God must keep on finding alternatives to our lack of action. In light of this fact His will is still perfected on earth. He will have a body that serves and worships Him.
God does not change the laws and judgements of sin. His commandments do not change nor does the consequence of sinning. It has always been, and still is, spiritual death. His word is perfection and does not return unto Him void. Jesus made an excellent example when He said that the stones would cry out if the multitude of disciples had not done so ( Luke 19:40 ).
Look at another Scripture where God has changed His mind. In 1 Samuel 15:35b it says: And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel. [NIV] Again, man has let down God and God grieved His original decision to make Saul king. God did not make a mistake or let man down. In any case of God changing His mind we see that it is a result of man grieving Him by being disobedient or falling into sin.
In the case of Abraham ( concerning Sodom ) this was an exercise for the benefit of Abraham. Because of Abraham's faithfulness God ALLOWED Abraham to ask these things of Him.
In no way does this call into question God's infallability.
Not in any instance of God "changing His mind" do you see His prefection compromised. Even with the grief over Saul's rulership He still had a king. Even with the Israelites murmuring and complaining, He still kept His promises of deliverance.
One of the most remarkable stories in the Bible can be found in the book of Jonah (Jonah 1:1-4): The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.” But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD. Then the LORD sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up. [NIV] With the ship threatened, Jonah told the crew to throw him overboard to appease God and to save them. This they reluctantly did and the raging sea grew calm (v15). Jonah, of course, was swallowed by a “great fish” and stayed there for three days and nights. Finally, God “commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land” (Jonah 2:10).
Now let’s read from Jonah 3:1-4 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.” Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city – a visit required three days. On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.” [NIV] So Jonah finally obeyed the Lord and told the Ninevites that they had only 40 days before their huge city of more than 120,000 people would be overturned. Reading further from Jonah 3:5-10 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh: “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. [NIV]
So the Ninevites repented of their “evil ways and their violence” and God, again, changed His mind. Why? Because of the reaction ( repentance )to His judgement of their sins. If anything, this last example sustains the concept of His perfection. God says that His mercies are everlasting. Had they repented and had He still destroyed them He would have been made a liar. He has always kept His word. Always. An imperfect man does not.
Jack Miles, a former Jesuit priest, pursued religious studies at Pontifical Gregorian College, Rome, and the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, and holds a doctorate in Near Eastern languages from Harvard University. He is currently senior advisor to the president of the J. Paul Getty Trust in Los Angeles. A former literary editor and editorial board member of the Los Angeles Times, he contributes to a long list of newspapers and magazines.“when an author quotes from Camus, Nietzsche, Milton, and a black gospel tune in the ten-page prologue alone, you know you're in for some intellectual heavy-lifting”
“he turns his attention to the New Testament, focusing on Christ, and presenting him as a literary creation based only partly on the historical Jesus. He regards the New Testament, in which God has become a man--that is, Christ--as an epilogue to the Hebrew scriptures. The "crisis" in the title of this unconventional reexamination of the four Gospels is that God-as-Christ is brutally executed to atone for promises unkept. Despite his divinity, his powers of salvation are limited, a fact made appallingly obvious when he is crucified.”
The bible is plain that He was without sin ( no need for repentance ). Yes, He was baptised but not because He was repentant. He was baptised in order to be obedient to the Father. We can be inspired more by a God who has faced the temptations we face and who overcame those temptations by, 1.not giving in to them and 2. by asserting His power over them more than we can be inspired by a God who succumbed to the sins of man leading Him to repent.
A God who is need of repentance is no more powerful than a mere mortal. If He has no more power or authority over sin than we have what would be the use in serving Him? What would be the use in believing in His promises?
Teaching a weak God is not biblical regardless of who the person may be, how many languages they speak, or where they received degrees from. How could the slain Lamb of God take away sin if He was a partaker in sin?
Thank you. I have never heard of this man before. As I posted, what I did read about him concerned me. Your further comments are very true:
The bible is plain that He was without sin ( no need for repentance ). Yes, He was baptised but not because He was repentant. He was baptised in order to be obedient to the Father. . . . A God who is need of repentance is no more powerful than a mere mortal. If He has no more power or authority over sin than we have what would be the use in serving Him? What would be the use in believing in His promises? . . . Teaching a weak God is not biblical regardless of who the person may be . . . How could the slain Lamb of God take away sin if He was a partaker in sin?
As you say, there would be absolutely no need to pray to a god whose no better than we, no more powerful than us, and who is guilty of committing sin or error--
I, again, must say, I am impressed with your knowledge of individuals and Scripture....'tis most rare. God's blessings to you.
I figured as much would be said that's OK you don't worry me. In the Old Testament when GOD spoke it was distinguished as "And GOD said" in the New Testemant it is highlited red letters or and Jesus or the Lord said". The Bible is the word of GOD. When GOD spoke his commandments and Chirst it was plain who said it. Luke 10:37 shows an angry Martha who's sister rather than doing the traditional woman customs went to Christ.
38 As Jesus and the disciples continued on their way to Jerusalem, they came to a village where a woman named Martha welcomed them into her home.
39 Her sister, Mary, sat at the Lord’s feet, listening to what he taught.
40 But Martha was worrying over the big dinner she was preparing. She came to Jesus and said, “Lord, doesn’t it seem unfair to you that my sister just sits here while I do all the work? Tell her to come and help me.”
41 But the Lord said to her, “My dear Martha, you are so upset over all these details!
42 There is really only one thing worth being concerned about. Mary has discovered it—and I won’t take it away from her.”
Ok what in your mind constitutes a church service? Christ said "Where two or more are gathered in my name there I will be also". Mary sitting at a Jewish Rabbi's feet this was not done in that day. In traditional Hebrew worship they could not be in the same room in the temple as a man during that time. Neither was a man to touch a woman in any way with issue of blood nor a leeper. What did Christ teach?
Go back to the vision of Peter for a moment. What happened? Why did it happen? What GOD has declared clean, Kosher, or legal, Peter made plain who was he to question it. You call me a non believer of GOD's word? I showed you plainly in scripture what was to happen. The prophecy of Joel as retold by Peter. Are you as Mary or are you as Martha?
There is really only one thing worth being concerned about. Mary has discovered it—and I won’t take it away from her.”
Said Christ.
Now what did Peter say on the matter the one who was shown through a vision by Christ the matters of the Jewish law?
! Peter Ch.3
1 In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands, even those who refuse to accept the Good News. Your godly lives will speak to them better than any words. They will be won over 2 by watching your pure, godly behavior.
3 Don’t be concerned about the outward beauty that depends on fancy hairstyles, expensive jewelry, or beautiful clothes.
4 You should be known for the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God.
5 That is the way the holy women of old made themselves beautiful. They trusted God and accepted the authority of their husbands.
6 For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, when she called him her master. You are her daughters when you do what is right without fear of what your husbands might do.
Notice it isn't the hair that makes the woman? Or her dress? A quite spirt means a person who is at peace with GOD. It is not an instruction for a person to not speaking out for the Gospel or teach it. Peter was a wise man. Peter was as well if I recall correctly a married man. Notice he teaches submission unto the husband as Paul? Notice he is not teaching church rules of worship as well. Only Paul in the NT did this. Again this was in letters addressed to his own churches under his leadership. The ones that either he visited or his workers visited.
By any sense of the word if we are to abide in the message you have been saying you yourself have disregarded it to the point of arguing spiritual matters with a man. You are a woman. Women mislead men huh? Then would you not think it wise for you to stop misleading in this matter? No I think you can teach the Gospel to others. I apply the same standard to you I apply to Joyce Meyer. You seem to think that it's OK for you to do this but not other women. Why just you?
As I posted several times I've had persons who take legalistic extremes of readings of scripture who question my faith and belief. My faith and belief remains intact. I can look back let's say 20 years ago and see the wrongs I thought. I can as well see the word becomes more meaningfull and taken to a new depth or higher understanding for me as I learn. Paul himself didn't become saved and start preaching. It was about 10 years thereafter.
I believe the Word of GOD. You can't know the depths of my beliefs nor can I yours. That's GOD's business. I know all to well the guiding hand of the Lord. I know his rebuke and his conviction too. I know his gentle comforting voice when darkness came and all looked so very hopeless. But on this matter my conscience is clear. I understand what really matters.
2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ.
3 Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?
4 You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away?
5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.
6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith.”
7 The real children of Abraham, then, are all those who put their faith in God.
8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would accept the Gentiles, too, on the basis of their faith. God promised this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”
9 And so it is: All who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.
10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all these commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”
11 Consequently, it is clear that no one can ever be right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”
12 How different from this way of faith is the way of law, which says, “If you wish to find life by obeying the law, you must obey all of its commands.”
13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.'
14 Through the work of Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, and we Christians receive the promised Holy Spirit through faith.
Seemed a legalistic teacher or teachers was among them? Someone who forgot about Grace through faith? Yes I know what the issue was there and what caused the discord. It was over Jewish Law. Peter had his problems struggling with it but so did Paul.
IOW, they will will trample the word and use it to condemn you. I do not doubt that you are a believer who seeks a deeper understanding of the scripture rather than the narrow legalistic views of some who have posted in response to you. I pray that your spirit will be increased as you study the word of the Lord.
II Timothy also tells us not to quarrel but be kind to everyone. That we must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people. It goes on to tell us that God will change those people's hearts.
Only the revelation brought by God's spirit can free someone from legalism. When one adheres strongly to doctrine of man it is hard for the Spirit to penetrate the heart. Hard but not impossible.
Romans 12:5 tells us that just as the physical body has many parts with different functions so does the spiritual body ( the church ). We are all part of one body ( Christ ) and each of us has a different work to do. Do that which you know that God has for you to do and don't worry about those who scoff at you and attempt to subject you to their own bondages. As Paul goes onto say in Romans 12; God has given each of us the ability to do something well. If your ability is prohecy, speak out when you have faith that God is speaking through you. If your gift is serving others, serve them well. If you are a teacher, do a good job of teaching. If your gift is encouragement of others, do it. If you have money, share it generously, If God has given you leadership ability, take it your responsibility seriously. If your gift is showing kindness to others, do it gladly.
Pray for those who are in bondage to doctrines of a legalistic manner. It will do more for them than attempting to prove them wrong.
Thank you for making that distinction. I would have a problem sitting under a female "pastor" but I don't have a problem with women teachers or evangelists who direct their ministries towards other women. It's true that men may hear them... but it is their choice to turn them off.
My hubby likes Joyce Meyer because she gives him so much insight into how women think... what they need in a relationship... and what they go through emotionally/spiritually in their walk with the Lord. It's made a huge difference in how he responds to me when I am having a difficult time.
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