The innocent dead in a coward's war

The Guardian ^ | Thursday December 20, 2001 | Seumas Milne

[Bommer]

I wasn't aware that the dead could speak? How many times does this man get counted?

3,767 times! Just ask Un-PC. He read the report! LOL!!!!

[big gray tabby]

You've got to be kidding.

If you live in a war zone, a country under siege, you can vamoose or you can stay and take your chances. If you don't want to die you have plenty of time to vacate the premises.

I'm just guessing here, but I doubt my buddies, as they plummeted from the 105th floor, felt like they had been given an opportunity to vacate and survive. Do you?

[BLASTER 14]

Hear! Hear!

'Y dogies, ol' Buddy, I truly like the way you think. You expressed my sentiments exactly. These "innocents" are the same as the "innocents" who died in Nazi Germany and at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

When war comes, everybody suffers, including "innocents".

[DuncanWaring]

On March 9, 1945 over 900 b-29s dropped incendiary bombs...

As I recall, it was only a little over 300 B-29s. You are right, though, about the hundred-thousand casualties.

Burned 14.7 square miles of downtown Tokyo to the ground.

[baseballfanjm]

There is no difference between the terrorism inflicted on innocent U.S. civilians on Sept. 11 and the terrorism inflicted by the U.S. on the Aghan people during the past two months. Both are inexcusable and immoral acts.

Yes, there is. What the terrorists did on 9/11 was a blatant and open act of terror in OUR civilians. What is going on in Afghanistan is our necessary response. We couldn't just sit back and do nothing. We had to attack. Actually, we aren't really attacking. We are defending what our country stands for from those who want to take it away. Just look at what the Taliban does to its people. It's clear that they would think of our Constitution as something to fear. And, yes, I say the Taliban because it is clear that they are hiding Bin Laden. So to get Bin Laden we have to cripple the Taliban. And to cripple the Taliban we have to attack Afghanistan. And in attacking people will die. I knew this beforehand. Everyone knew beforehand that Afghani civilians would die. Civilians die in all wars. What matters overall is the end result. If innocent people die then too bad. No, it's not a good thing. Yes, it's tragic. But it is unavoidable in war and right now war is necessary.

[Polybius]

Based on corroborated reports from aid agencies, the UN, eyewitnesses, TV stations, newspapers and news agencies around the world, Herold estimates that at least 3,767 civilians were killed by US bombs between October 7 and December 10.

Based on the same criteria, 10,000 died at WTC which later turned out to be a grossly inflated figure.

This number of 3,767 is now being quoted by the Left and, as it is repeated again and again, will eventually become The Truth.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

as grief walks the frozen hills of Afghanistan, OBL or whomever was responsible for 9/11 walks free.

If it comes to that, these poor folks could be rich if they just turned obl in . . .

But seriously, the idea of labeling military volunteers as "coward" is a bit wierd; military uniforms are after all symbolic body bags. But nobody wages war by making sure they don't have any advantage over the opposition; rather they reckon that "all's fair in love and war." And try to pick on people who they can defeat.

The declining cost of electronics means that "dumb" bombs are becoming passe; if you think you can actually hit the spot you're aiming for you can be relatively aggressive using your bombs in an effort to defeat your foe. Trouble is, sometimes your weapon proves to be pretty stupid, and sometimes you just are going to be wrong about where you should want the bomb to hit.

But the idea of standing and fighting in line of battle went out with the musket; if the other guy doesn't stand up and fight you're a fool not to duck yourself--and the guy in the fortress took advantage of the cover he had to shoot at people who couldn't easily shoot back, and that traces all the way back to Jerico, at least.

Even caves now offer only superficial protection if your position is accurately reported to the USAF and you are considered a significant target. It is well known by now that our aversion to inflicting civilian casualties is the primary defense against our Air Force and Naval air arm, so use of civilians as human shields is a primary defensive measure if you cannot defeat the Air Force itself.

I think of the cry of the Greek defender when he saw that the Roman catapault made it impossible to man a critical post without being killed--"human valor no longer avails!" The whole complaint boils down to the fact that the Taliban was outgunned. Everything else follows.

[SunStar]

It has instead been paid by ordinary Afghans, who had nothing whatever to do with the atrocities, didn't elect the Taliban theocrats who ruled over them and had no say in the decision to give house room to Bin Laden and his friends.

Then why didn't they oust the unwanted, foreign Taliban government?

[F.J. Mitchell]

Marc Herold and his fellow aiders and enablers of the worlds terrorists, choose to ignore the reality that the Afraghan civilians were the first victims of the malignant al-quaida-Taliban cancer, and it's roots had become so entangled with every good thing left in Afghanastan, that even with laser surgery, healthy cells have died along with the sick.

I believe that every good citizen of Afghanastan who has lost their lives through friendly fire or otherwise in the war against the terrorist who have held their country in captive abuse for many years, if able to speak for themselves, would tell us that if there had been a smidgen of hope of defeating the taliban and al-qaida before now, they would have already put their lives on the line.

This war is not about an eye for an eye, or killing as many terrorist as they kill of ours, or about revenge and/or pay back, it is about ridding the world of all who threaten the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happines of peace loving people. Good people are forced to kill certain agressors from time to time, just for survival's sake. Would life be worth living in a world where, fleas, ticks, bacteria, virus, mosquitos, mice, roaches, rabid animals, and fungus were declared to be endangered species and protected by law? Only for those belonging to the listed catagories. I didn't list terrorists among those other pests, even pestilence deserves more respect than that.

The world that pleases Marc Herold, would be hell-your world already exists, Marc, Bon Voyage.

[F.J. Mitchell]

#23: So, only civilians are innocent in your world of let everyone else's kid do the dangerous and dirty jobs? Are you saying that as soon as an eighteen year old honor student graduates from high school and decides to enlist in the Military Service of this country, they lose their innocence as soon as they are sworn in and put on their uniforms? That is how I take your comment.

There is not one human being in Afghanastan or any other war zone that may come, that is any more innocent than America's youth in uniform who are not just fighting for us but for the good people in whatever country they are serving in. Our boys and girls in uniform around this planet, risking their lives for what is right and just, are just as innocent as the chicken shit cowards who see only civilians as innocent. I cannot speak for other countries, but I do know that non but the best of the volunteers who apply, are allowed to serve in our Armed Forces.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

Hear, hear!

[zandtar]

I think it was actually 2 waves. First wave was the incendiary bombs, which started the fires. Next wave was about 15-30 minutes later with fragmentation bombs. Start the fires then wait until the firefighters come out to start fighting the fires. In come the fragmentation bombs to take as many of them out as possible so the fires cause maximum damage and spread. Cold, calculating, and nasty business. But highly effective.

[DuncanWaring]

Possibly. I don't recall those details, and my copy of Mission With LeMay is packed.

At Hamburg, they dropped HE first to damage the water mains and make fighting the fires more difficult, then followed up with Incendiary. See The Night Hamburg Died by Martin Caidin.