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The innocent dead in a coward's war
The Guardian ^ | Thursday December 20, 2001 | Seumas Milne

Posted on 12/20/2001 9:11:09 AM PST by afuturegovernor

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To: Ridin' Shotgun
Most of the replies here distrust the 3,767 "estimate" the "independent" prof of women's studies and economics cooked up. BTW, we here are not all Christians or God-worshippers. Thought you should know.
21 posted on 12/20/2001 9:57:35 AM PST by stands2reason
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To: afuturegovernor
Mr. Milne,

I think if a country attacks us and kills innocent Americans, I believe in the 1000 fold philosophy. For every single American killed we should kill a thousand of theirs. Now that might not sit well with some & they are entitled to their opinion, but it will damn sure make our enemies think before they act. The Taliban should have thought more before they put their people at risk, if you want someone to blame for the innocent Afghans. Well then talk to the B@stards that are responsible for it, the Taliban & Bin Laden not the U.S. By the way, get a life.

HELLRAISER II
22 posted on 12/20/2001 10:04:23 AM PST by HELLRAISER II
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To: Bommer
Why don't you read the author's report (I have read it, and it's very meticulous) instead of callously excusing these inhumane attacks against innocent civilians. The Afghans who died in these attacks were no different from you are I. Many of them had a wife or husband, children, relatives and loved ones who were blown to smithereens by American bombs. There is no difference between the terrorism inflicted on innocent U.S. civilians on Sept. 11 and the terrorism inflicted by the U.S. on the Aghan people during the past two months. Both are inexcusable and immoral acts.

This administration should be ashamed of itself. And it should be held accountable. Unfortunately, the empire-builders and warmongers and their allies in the press will work overtime to make sure these revelations never see the light of day in the "mainstream press."

23 posted on 12/20/2001 10:06:37 AM PST by Un-PC
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To: afuturegovernor
The decision to rely heavily on high-altitude air power, target urban infrastructure and repeatedly attack heavily populated towns and villages has reflected a deliberate trade-off of the lives of American pilots and soldiers, not with those of their declared Taliban enemies, but with Afghan civilians.

Imagine that! A nation chooses the lives of its own citizens over the lives of a combatant nation's citizens! The horror...

24 posted on 12/20/2001 10:10:18 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: afuturegovernor
Boo-friggin-hoo.
25 posted on 12/20/2001 10:11:05 AM PST by A Navy Vet
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To: Un-PC
I think you forgot this:

< /sarcasm >

26 posted on 12/20/2001 10:11:42 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: afuturegovernor

27 posted on 12/20/2001 10:12:02 AM PST by G.Mason
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Bommer
So an ECONOMICS PROFESSOR who is an EXPERT in ECONIOMICS collected UNSUBSTANUATED reports from HIGHLY UNRELIABLE SOURCES to come up with definative death count

LOL Reminds me of the dopey French Canadian economics professor the Gorons had testify during the post election trials. He too based his faulty findings on faulty data provided by the Dems, without verifying the facts.

29 posted on 12/20/2001 10:15:13 AM PST by Attillathehon
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To: Headlong
It doesn't look like an argument to me. It's a fact. A fact that those who attack the US and kill inocent civilians should keep in mind.
30 posted on 12/20/2001 10:17:51 AM PST by paul51
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To: Headlong
Is this your BEST argument?

How about this:

As Commander on Chief, President Bush's mandate is to protect the citizens of his own nation first and foremost. If he can do that and spare the lives of civilians in the enemy country, so much the better. If not, the safety of our own troops and civilians must be paramount. On this, there can be no compromise.

31 posted on 12/20/2001 10:19:12 AM PST by NittanyLion
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Headlong
Innocents ALWAYS die in war.
Is this your BEST argument?

How about this best argument ... I DON'T CARE!

200 years from now, I want their children's children's children's children to cower and cringe in fear whenever they hear the sounds of jet engines overhead because their legends tell of fire from the sky.

I want them to hide in dark caves and holes in the earth, shivering with terror whenever they hear the roar of diesel engines because the tales of their ancestors talk about metal monsters crawling over the earth, spitting death and destruction.

I want their mothers to be able to admonish them with "If you don't behave, the Pale Destroyers will come for you", and that will be enough to reduce them to quivering obesience.

I want the annihilation to be so complete that their mythology will tell them of the day of judgment when the stern gods from across the sea .. the powerful 'Mericans .. destroyed their forefathers' wickedness.

Kill them all ... nits make lice.
COL Chivington (Sand Creek)

34 posted on 12/20/2001 10:25:25 AM PST by BlueLancer
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To: Un-PC
Why don't you read the author's report (I have read it, and it's very meticulous) instead of callously excusing these inhumane attacks against innocent civilians Get a freakin life will ya!!!

Here are his sources. All of them unsubstantuated. No photos! No video! No proof of corpses! And if these are indeed "corroborated" then why is the final body total an "estimate"?

Based on corroborated reports from aid agencies, the UN, eyewitnesses, TV stations, newspapers and news agencies around the world, Herold estimates that at least 3,767 civilians were killed by US bombs between October 7 and December 10.

Wanna know what CNN, MSNBC, FOX, CBS, ABC and ABC said were the TOTAL dead of the WTC? Over 7000! Know what it is? Less that 3000! The UN in the Bosinia war estimated mass Albania graves of dead Albanians close to 1 million. Actual graves found about 10,000, as a matter of fact there were more Serbian killed found in Mass graves than Albanians! Also how do you get an ESTIMATE of a precise number like 3,767 from unsubstantuated sources? Pop you head out of your propaganda an realize that unless a name is attached to a body, estimates are usually over inflated. Remember these are the same sources that said this war would be a quagmire, ESTIMATED to be in it for several years!

35 posted on 12/20/2001 10:43:01 AM PST by Bommer
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To: Headlong
ME: Yes. For just one example, the Taliban shelled Kabul for a month in June 1996, killing (stable estimates say)more than 2000.

YOU:So, your argument is that we are no worse than the Taliban?

Apparently identifying arguements is not your strong suit, so I'll make it explicit. The point concerned the Guardian's knee - jerk anti - American reflex. If it were civilian casualties that troubled them they would have had many occasions to complain. That they choose to do so now indicates that it is something else that moves them to howling indignation. If you refrain from selective quotation it will probably help your clarity of thought.

36 posted on 12/20/2001 10:48:18 AM PST by PPCLI
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To: Numbers Guy
Being a Quaker (in the Free Quaker vein) I find many of the statements made by the AFSC offensive. However I just find this quote quite funny:

"...One man, a 35-year-old farmer who lost his wife, her husband, and six of their seven children, said, "Before the bombing, the Taliban was always saying that American s were enemies of Muslims and of Islam, and we did not believe that. But nowadays, when [the US forces] are killing innocent people, we believe that what the Taliban was saying about America is true: they are trying to kill Muslims and finish Islam..."

I wasn't aware that the dead could speak? How many times does this man get counted?

37 posted on 12/20/2001 10:50:51 AM PST by Woodman
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Un-PC
Why don't you read the author's report (I have read it, and it's very meticulous) instead of callously excusing these inhumane attacks against innocent civilians. The Afghans who died in these attacks were no different from you are I. Many of them had a wife or husband, children, relatives and loved ones who were blown to smithereens by American bombs. There is no difference between the terrorism inflicted on innocent U.S. civilians on Sept. 11 and the terrorism inflicted by the U.S. on the Aghan people during the past two months. Both are inexcusable and immoral acts.

That is the biggest pantload I have seen in some time, and you are truly despicable for trying to make such an asinine equivalence. The terrorists deliberately targeted two civilian buildings in New York and made efforts to maximize civilian casualties, and initiated force against this country. We responded by targeting military resources in the country that harbored the terrorist group responsible for the attack. In such situations, civilians will get killed, BUT THEY ARE NOT OUR PRIMARY TARGET NOR THE PURPOSE OF OUR MISSION. I defy your sorry ass to come up with a viable alternative that allows this country to take out an enemy that DELIBERATELY hides among civilians and uses them as shields. In earlier wars, the civilian death toll for such an operation would have been far higher, but you don't care about that, you just want to get a warm smug feeling (kinda like wetting your pants) decrying a legitimate military operation to defend this country against further attack.

39 posted on 12/20/2001 10:52:27 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy
AMEN DIRTBOY! For a handle like Un-PC, this jerk is to the left of PC!
40 posted on 12/20/2001 10:54:45 AM PST by Bommer
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