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BOOKS: Portrait of the poor both sharp and bleak
Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 12/16/01 | Teresa K. Weaver

Posted on 12/17/2001 4:59:25 AM PST by madprof98

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My own experience suggests Dalrymple is right about the connection between poverty and worldview, at least in an affluent society like this one. And I think the reviewer is right about the reason this topic gets so little discussion here in the US--our fetish about racism. But before I buy the book, I'm curious whether anyone here is familiar with either Dalrymple or the Manhattan Institute.
1 posted on 12/17/2001 4:59:25 AM PST by madprof98
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To: madprof98
The Manhattan Institute is a fairly new think tank looking at urban problems from a conservative point of view.

Their web site

Lots on welfare reform and faith-based charity. Very interesting stuff.
3 posted on 12/17/2001 5:11:56 AM PST by Tis The Time''s Plague
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To: madprof98
, Dalrymple tells of generations of abusers and abused, single women who have multiple children by multiple men, drug addicts who blame the heroin, burglars who fault the people who keep replacing the stuff they steal.

Seems to be the folks who make up the underclass got there by their own choices, not by any oversight of the larger society.

5 posted on 12/17/2001 5:21:23 AM PST by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: candyman34
the greeedy bastards in congress passed all those trade treaties - and sent a lot of jobs overseas

Jobs went overseas because your fellow Americans want products made at bargain prices. You can't blame COngress for this one.

6 posted on 12/17/2001 5:23:59 AM PST by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: madprof98
"Poverty isn't caused by economics, he argues, but rather by a wildly dysfunctional --- and rapidly spreading --- set of values."

This is subject has interested me for some time. It's worrisome that so many are adopting the culture of "poverty" values. The middle class can afford it to a point, the economically poor cannot.

7 posted on 12/17/2001 5:30:25 AM PST by beGlad
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To: madprof98
I saw two things in there that make me wonder quite how good a handle Dalrymple has on things.

The first is the tattoo parlor. I don't know how things stand in England, but in the U.S., over the past 20 years, getting a tattoo has become pretty much unrelated to social standing and poverty.

The other is the trip to the suicide ward. For the most part, suicide is unrelated to poverty or income. In fact, suicide is one of the few major causes of death, for which the rate of death is significantly higher for whites than blacks in America.

That said, this book is concerned with poverty in England. So what would be inaccurate for the U.S. could be true for the U.K., for all I know.

8 posted on 12/17/2001 5:34:09 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
I say, Dalyrimple, can't these scruffy yobboes be rounded up and sent to colonize some vast antipodal island continent, Australia say?

Wait, I've got it! We'll seize India!

10 posted on 12/17/2001 5:45:10 AM PST by Francohio
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To: madprof98
As my mother's generation used to say, "Poor people have poor ways."
11 posted on 12/17/2001 5:45:27 AM PST by lady lawyer
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To: madprof98
I read this book, and it was excellent. It was really interesting to me how the white underclass in Britain has the same problems as the black underclass here in the US. In Britain, however, the white underclass can't trot out the tired canard that their socio-economic status is the fault of Whitey.

This book should be required reading for all high school kids, and for all "flaky" college majors (communications, education, psychology-- you know the touchy-feely types I'm talking about). If the white underclass in Britain suffers from the same social pathologies as the US black underclass, that negates rascism as a cause, doesn't it?

12 posted on 12/17/2001 5:49:00 AM PST by Henrietta
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To: A Ruckus of Dogs
Jobs went overseas because your fellow Americans want products made at bargain prices.

Jobs also go to lower-pay jurisdictions in part because of the stranglehold labor unions have on the American economy. When you are forced by unions to pay your workers so much that you can't make a profit (this is also known as being forced to pay workers MORE THAN they are worth in a true economic sense), then you have two choices: 1) go out of business, or 2) move your manufacturing plant overseas.

American consumers want low-priced manufactured goods and high-wage manufacturing jobs that pay more than the market will support. Until people realise that we can't have both, we will continue to see jobs lost to Mexico and the Phillipines.

13 posted on 12/17/2001 5:54:04 AM PST by Henrietta
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To: Henrietta
I read this book, and it was excellent.

Did the author make any attempt to find and write about people who were poor, but still managed to be optimistic and happy with their lives? There was a time in my life when I was living pretty much hand-to-mouth, but it didn't make me an aimless derelict. At some point, you have to wonder if we aren't confusing cause and effect. Does poverty cause the welfare state, or does the welfare state cause poverty?

14 posted on 12/17/2001 6:11:10 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
The first is the tattoo parlor. I don't know how things stand in England, but in the U.S., over the past 20 years, getting a tattoo has become pretty much unrelated to social standing and poverty.

Dalrymple's point about the tatoo parlor was that body decorations like piercings and tatoos were traditionally lower-class phenomena, and the fact that the middle and upper classes are now emulating this sort of behavior bodes ill for the culture.

He brings up the point that formerly, the lower classes used to mimic the upper classes in mannerism, speech, and dress. Though poor, they sought to emulate "respectable" behavior, and thus elevate themselves by conforming to behavioral norms, thus transitioning to a more "cultured" society when they attained the means to do so economically and culturally.

Now, you see the middle and upper classes mimicing the pathologies of the lower classes, such as tatooing, piercing, single parenthood, swearing, lack of responsibility for one's own behavior, etc. This coarsens society, and elevates the lower classes to some sort of "noble" status that we are all supposed to emulate to be "cool" and "hip." If we turn up our noses in disgust at the above-mentioned behavior, we are being "judgemental" and "classist." Freed of the shackles of judgment for our behavior, the formerly respectable middle and upper classes are now freed to act as vulgar and anti-social as our lower-class counterparts. The result: a loss of social niceties, and a loss of respect for courtesy, the rights of others, and civility.

Now, as a small-l libertarian, I'm all for not legislating morality, but when we stop being "judgmental" of anti-social and self-destructive behaviors like that which formerly was only tolerated among the most aberrant of the lower classes, we encourage the proliferation of more laws to keep order, because we ourselves have failed to exercise the moral pressure and disapprobation necessary to maintain some sort of sane and responsible society.

We don't need more laws if each of us has the backbone to condemn aberrant behavior and refuse to subsidize it (to the extent that our tax laws allow us). Am I making any sense here, or is this a disjointed, Monday-morning ramble? :^]

15 posted on 12/17/2001 6:12:59 AM PST by Henrietta
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To: lady lawyer
Poor people do have poor ways. We been discussing this in a group bible study group I'm in. Example: my neice has often called upon my family for financial support for herself and 5 children. Yet, recently she was looking through the classifieds to find a pupply to buy. When my sister said to her, "You don't need a dog." She replied, "Don't tell me what I need."

Poor people have poor priorities as well.

16 posted on 12/17/2001 6:14:19 AM PST by beGlad
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To: tacticalogic
There was a time in my life when I was living pretty much hand-to-mouth, but it didn't make me an aimless derelict.

Me, too. It was the four years of my life I spent saving for college, and the four years of my life I spent in college. Somehow, though, I managed to join the upper middle class and now have an income equal to the top 1% of income earners in the United States. I grew up in a lower-middle-class household with parents who were high-school educated and had no great career prospects.

My experience echoes the finding of many poverty researchers who note that poverty is a temporary situation for the vast majority of people, and that education and work are the solution. In less than 10 years, I went from the bottom income quintile to the very top quintile. I did not get help from parents, government transfer payments, or affirmative action to help me get there. I just worked, plain and simple. I'm the first person in my family to graduate from college, and I have a doctoral degree as well. It can be done.

17 posted on 12/17/2001 6:20:49 AM PST by Henrietta
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To: madprof98
the characteristic expression of the urban underclass (a combination of bovine vacancy and lupine malignity)

That is, as the author himself notes, a phrase to savor, albeit unpleasantly.

18 posted on 12/17/2001 6:21:03 AM PST by gumbo
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To: Henrietta
Thanks for this and your other very helpful comments. I will get ahold of this book.
19 posted on 12/17/2001 6:23:18 AM PST by madprof98
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To: beGlad
Example: my neice has often called upon my family for financial support for herself and 5 children. Yet, recently she was looking through the classifieds to find a pupply to buy. When my sister said to her, "You don't need a dog." She replied, "Don't tell me what I need."

Dalrymple gives numerous examples of this sort of behavior in his book. When a woman allows her abusing ex-boyfriend, by whom she has several children, back into her home, in a drunken rage he trashes her subsidized apartment, breaking down the front door, and breaking windows. She, however, will bear no responsibility for letting this man back into her home. She simply telephones the Housing Authority (or whatever they call it in merry old England) and they come out and fix everything for free. He'll be back in a week or two to play out the same tired scenario, and why not? She'll maybe get some money out of him for the kids before he trashes the apartment, and she doesn't have to pay for the trashed apartment.

When you give money to your niece, she is indulging in exactly this same behavior. Of course she can afford a dog -- she knows your generous family will not let her kids go hungry. The kids will learn this behavior, and the happy cycle will continue. Get my drift??

20 posted on 12/17/2001 6:35:41 AM PST by Henrietta
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