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"Brutus" Number I
Constitution Society ^ | 18 October 1787 | Anti-Federalist Papers

Posted on 12/06/2001 12:04:43 PM PST by Jim Robinson

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To: f.Christian
One of those premises is that without the self discipline, morality, and rationality required for self government, liberty crumbles into madness, and people clamor for the police state to restore order."

Well, I HAVE the self-discipline, morality, and ratioinality required for self-government. Now, whether they conform to your ideals, I could care less.

121 posted on 12/14/2001 12:23:53 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: f.Christian
I am neither a storm trooper, nor a would-be dictator, nor a "Reno-lover". What I fail to see in your arguement is what, other than your own conviction that you are right and just, gives you the right to claim that you or an other person or agent other than Juan Miguel had the right to decide what is best for Elian. You probably dont realize it, but you are the one arguing for a police state, with you and those who think like you in the role of police.
122 posted on 12/14/2001 12:33:43 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: thusevertotyrants
Maybe you should re-read the reamrks by JR...who says the rule of law must be upheld...

You definitely stated you supported the Reno police state action and he disagreed with you---little confused are you?

Our ideals are the opposite!

123 posted on 12/14/2001 12:43:25 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: f.Christian
Yes and yes. The rule of law Yes As in, the moment that Elian's relatives did not accede to Juan Miguel's demands to retain custody of Elian, they were engaged in a criminal act, and the law acts to end such criminal act
124 posted on 12/14/2001 2:07:44 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: dirtboy
help!
125 posted on 12/14/2001 2:10:44 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: thusevertotyrants
Chew on this analysis. You are confusing your desire and beliefs with the law, just as the Clinton Administration did:

The Elian Raid was Illegal
Judge Andrew P. Napolitano

When Attorney General Janet Reno asked President Clinton to approve her plan to use U.S. marshals and Immigration and Naturalization Service tactical agents to break into the home of Lazaro Gonzales to seize his great-nephew Elian, they must have known that the plan was constitutionally flawed, unlawful, and repugnant to the language and spirit of the then three-day-old decision of the U.S. Court of Appeals that ordered Reno to keep Elian in the United States.

The attorney general, herself a former chief prosecutor for Miami, knows that the government cannot break into a private home and seize a human being without a warrant specifically authorizing the seizure, unless in hot pursuit of a fleeing felon. The president-- himself a former governor, state attorney general, and constitutional law professor--must have known likewise.

The first effort to conceal the truth was the attorney general's application for a search warrant. She did not present it to Judge Michael Moore, the federal district judge in Miami handling the case, but rather waited until after 7:00 p.m. on Good Friday, when a federal duty magistrate not familiar with the case and notoriously progovernment in his rulings was available to hear warrant applications.

The affidavit presented to the magistrate to induce him to sign the search warrant was signed by Special INS Agent Mary Rodriguez. Agent Rodriguez told the magistrate that Elian was being "concealed" at Lazaro's home, was "unlawfully restrained" there, and that INS Deputy Director of Investigations James Spearman had already directed the arrest of Elian because he was "an illegal alien."

LAZARO'S HOUSE INVADED

In response, the magistrate issued a search warrant. Thus, the power that the government invoked to invade Lazaro Gonzales' house was that conferred by Congress when contraband, or evidence of a crime, is being hidden. That, of course, was hardly the case with Elian, whose daily forays into Lazaro's front yard and Little Havana's streets were regularly shown on television. Moreover, the INS itself had designated Lazaro as Elian's guardian and had placed him in Lazaro's house.

The application for the warrant is as revealing by what it does not say as by what it does. Reno justified her agents' use of tear gas, guns, and violence by claiming a fear of weapons in Lazaro's house. On this, Rodriguez's affidavit is silent. Reno claimed she seized the child for his own best interests.

There is no allegation in Rodriguez's affidavit of mistreatment or likely harm to Elian by his Miami relatives. Moreover, the affidavit does not reveal that the government never interviewed the boy or had him examined by health-care professionals. Rodriguez also did not tell the magistrate that Aaron Podhurst, a well-respected Miami lawyer and a longtime personal friend of Reno's, was feverishly mediating negotiations between lawyers for the government, Elian's father, and Lazaro as the affidavit was being filed.

The application for the warrant is also troubling because, according to Richard Sharpstein, one of Miami's best-regarded criminal defense and immigration lawyers, the INS never arrests Cuban aliens without evidence of criminal activity on the part of the alien. This restraint on the part of the INS is arguably mandated by the Cuban Adjustment Act, which Congress enacted in 1966 to encourage Cubans to flee to the United States and which confers automatic eligibility for U.S. citizenship upon all Cuban nationals in the United States for one year.

It is now clear that the "search" warrant was just a pretext to get into Lazaro's house. No legitimate federal purpose was served by the raid. Elian was not in danger, he was cared for by blood relatives, he was voluntarily in their home, and a federal appeals court was soon to hear his appeal of Judge Moore's denial of his motion to order the INS to process his asylum application. A simple court order, sought on notice to Elian's lawyers, could have peacefully transferred custody. But Reno wanted a dramatic gesture.

PHOTO SHOWN AROUND THE WORLD

The next effort we know of to conceal the truth was the KGB-like behavior of the first agent to enter the Gonzalez home after the front door had been battered down. He kicked, maced, and assaulted an NBC television cameraman, whom the attorney general's intelligence had told her would be in the house, and destroyed his opportunity to film the raid. (Three hours later at a press briefing, Reno extolled "the beauties of television." ) But neither the president nor the attorney general knew that another photographer was hiding in a bedroom.

Albert Diaz positioned himself in time to take the snapshot shown around the world: an INS agent in a private home aiming the muzzle of an automatic weapon at a six-year-old boy. This photograph is a modern-day reminder of why the framers of the Constitution insisted upon a clause--the Fourth Amendment--to protect people in their homes from unreasonable searches and seizures by the government. The picture also is a slap in the face to a president and attorney general who permitted and later tried to justify the behavior it depicted.

Within hours of the abuse of Lazaro's and Elian's basic constitutional liberties, Clinton and Reno each told televised press gatherings that the agents' actions were in furtherance of the "rule of law" and the order of an appeals court. When I interviewed Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder on the Fox News Channel just a few hours after the raid, he, too, steadfastly insisted that the raid was carried out pursuant to an appeals court order and in furtherance of the "rule of law."

But the truth is that just one week before the raid, the Department of Justice had asked the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit to order the turnover of Elian. The court declined to grant that request. Thus, we know that the president and his attorney general knew that they lacked authority for the raid without judicial sanction. Why else would they have asked for it?

The truth is that in the same decision in which the Court of Appeals denied Reno's application for the turnover of Elian it made several findings, all of which strongly militated against the violent seizure of the boy. The court found that when Elian was rescued from the sea, the INS named Lazaro, his great-uncle, as his guardian. Lazaro's interests, the court found, were identical to Elian's; they were not the interests of a foreign government.

The court further found that both Lazaro and Elian then made applications to the INS for political asylum for Elian. The court also interpreted the congressional statute governing the INS, and the INS' own regulations, as mandating that all applications for asylum be processed to completion. This, the court held, required the INS to conduct an interview of the applicant and his guardian and hold a hearing if anyone--such as a parent--objected to the asylum application. That same act of Congress and those same INS regulations, the court declared, had no limitations on the age of applicants and prohibited the INS from changing guardians for a child once an application had been filed.

AN AFFRONT TO THE FOURTH AMENDMENT

The truth is that the president's decision to conduct the early-morning raid--after the government's application for judicial authority to transfer custody of Elian away from his guardian had been denied and after the government had misled a federal magistrate into signing a search warrant--was an affront to the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, substantially obstructed the congressional mandate that all applications for asylum be processed to completion, clearly violated the INS' own regulations, and publicly thumbed its political nose at the Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit. The so-called rule of law cited repeatedly by the government is nothing more than Reno's subjective beliefs and her misreading of the decision of the Court of Appeals.

If one takes a step back from the guns and the anguish and tears on Holy Saturday morning, one sees this government's decision through even less credulous eyes. The Elian Gonzales case is a custody dispute. In Florida, as in all states, custody disputes are addressed by state family courts, not federal courts, and focus on one paramount issue: What are the best interests of the child--not the interests of a parent, not the interests of a president, and not the interests of a foreign government. Never in the recorded judicial history of the United States has a child's custody been changed by the force and violence of the federal government without a specific order of a court authorizing it.

In a poem about Abraham Lincoln's assassination, Herman Melville commented that Lincoln's successor, Andrew Johnson--the only other president to be impeached--failed to "[b]eware the people weeping when they bear the iron hand." The thousands weeping over the raid at the Gonzales home should weep for more than Elian. This president and his attorney general, after seven years, still do not perceive how they continue to weaken the fabric of our culture. In a free society the moral legitimacy of government depends in large measure on fidelity to the truth and fidelity to established law. But it is clearly too late to expect the Clinton administration to recognize this truism

126 posted on 12/14/2001 2:29:32 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: thusevertotyrants
I do not interpret the constitution as making it necessary for the government to sanction when I, having committed no crime, can retain custody of my child

I agree that is not a Constitutional, federal issue - it is a state issue. The feds should only have been involved to determine Elian's immigration status and to grant Juan a visa to come present his case before the courts. The INS had paroled Elian to his relative's care, and there are legal guidelines for reversing that process - guidelines that were violated by the Clinton Administration. The custody battle belonged in the Florida State Courts.

In the end, Clinton and Reno denied Elian and Juan their day in court - because Juan was never free to move about this country without an escort of Castro's goons, so we never knew his true desire, either. You can argue liberty versus parental rights question fairly, but it is clear that the raid was a violation of the law and the raid should be strongly condemned as a result.

127 posted on 12/14/2001 2:33:09 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: thusevertotyrants
I can condone that some authority had to step in on behalf of Elian's legal guardian -

Hint - it is not clear that Juan Miguel was NOT Elian's legal guardian at the time of the raid. The INS had revoked Elian's parole a couple of days before, but using a statute normally reserved for criminal matters, not civil/custody matters. And the relatives, having secured Elian's right to apply for asylum through the 11th Circuit ruling, were negotiating in good faith to turn Elian over - but the Clinton Administration was desperate to short-circuit the asylum process, hence the raid.

And why, if what the relatives were doing was so illegal, why was the only arrest warrant for Elian as an illegal alien (a ludicrous concept, since the 11th Circuit had just ordered Elian to stay in the country). The Miami relatives have NEVER been charged with a crime relating to the events around the raid - and the Clintonistas have never been shy about trying to hang charges on people - just ask the Travel Office folks about that.

128 posted on 12/14/2001 2:42:40 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy
You can attempt to politicize this any way you like, but the fact remains - Noone had any right of custody over Elian other than his father. The only role or responsibility of any government agent or agency was to get the boy back to his father. Had the Miami relatives complied with the father's wishes, no further action would have been necessary. It is remarkable and quite appalling how people can invoke the courts to become involved in some issue in the name of self-righteousness. You were correct in your statement that this was not a constitutional issue - what is was was a FAMILY issue. Surely I hope that you would not sanction a society where government has the authority to decide family ties and is required to sanction every bond of parenthood.
129 posted on 12/14/2001 3:40:18 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: dirtboy
Can you do this? When you think about this case, dont try and rehash what one political side or the other has said. Dont think in terms of "clintonite" or "reno-lover" or "conservative" or "party" or "Castro" . Use your OWN mind and your COMMON SENSE. Now ... there is a child who has thru circumstance become seperated from his father. The father is asking to have the child returned to him. The parties that currently have the child in their possession (reading that back it's such an ugly phrase, as if the child were an object, but that's ultimately what became of Elian, he became an object to be used by each political group to demonize the other) - anyway, the people who have the child say that, no, they will not give him up and give him back to his father. ....... Is this a crime? When you answer, dont think in terms of which party shares your politics, dont think in terms of what some writer or some pol or some judge has said .. think if you will in the future, the next time this happens, will the act of refusing to yield custody to the father be a criminal act? .. Now, lets make it more personal - this hypothetical is YOUR CHILD - and YOU are the one calling for his return. You are telling me that you would say - "Oh, thats ok, I will allow the courts of a foreign country to decide if I am my child's father? ............ Come on now , COMMON f***in SENSE
130 posted on 12/14/2001 3:52:07 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: Prodigal Daughter
I never knew the extent of media manipulation until I witnessed those months of daily propaganda.

And we all became a little wiser after that sad charade.

131 posted on 12/14/2001 7:54:49 PM PST by Ironword
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To: thusevertotyrants
To: f.Christian

I am neither a storm trooper, nor a would-be dictator, nor a "Reno-lover". What I fail to see in your arguement is what, other than your own conviction that you are right and just, gives you the right to claim that you or an other person or agent other than Juan Miguel had the right to decide what is best for Elian. You probably dont realize it, but you are the one arguing for a police state, with you and those who think like you in the role of police.

122 posted on 12/14/01 1:34 PM Pacific by thusevertotyrants

Is this what you call..."common f'---ing sense"----denial/projection?

132 posted on 12/16/2001 12:09:58 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: f.Christian
How simply can I put this? Why dont YOU decide YOUR morals and YOUR family values and YOUR religion for YOURSELF and let OTHERS do the same for THEMSELVES?
133 posted on 12/16/2001 12:51:57 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: thusevertotyrants
..."One of those premises is that without the self discipline, morality, and rationality required for self government, liberty crumbles into madness, and people clamor for the police state to restore order."
134 posted on 12/16/2001 12:55:35 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: thusevertotyrants
Yes and yes. The rule of law Yes As in, the moment that Elian's relatives did not accede to Juan Miguel's demands to retain custody of Elian, they were engaged in a criminal act, and the law acts to end such criminal act

124 posted on 12/14/01 3:08 PM Pacific by thusevertotyrants

"Juan Miguel's demands"---Sudenland...sound very Hitlerenoesque to me---YOU!!

"and the law"---ruse of law via nazi party...gestapo/you!

135 posted on 12/16/2001 1:12:08 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: f.Christian
In other words, if Elian's relatives had the discipline and common sense to abide by the law and return the boy to his father, the police would not have had to become involved.
136 posted on 12/16/2001 1:56:33 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: thusevertotyrants
Tyranny is ussually defined by a "higher end" with what ever means("MADE-FORCED ME TO DO IT") necessary---bizare?

Your words--thinking!

Good tyranny(yours) vs bad tyranny(mine)!

And you blame the family-victim---don't let the courts decide--FORCE/we want closure!

What kind of judge--scorekeeper--jury would you make?

Two sides to an issue a little too complicated for you?

Were you in on the fix---"decision-operations"?

Most philosophers think "free thinkers" are making it up all---explaining themselves...their lack of character---

hiding their dark side---window dressing!

137 posted on 12/16/2001 2:16:08 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: thusevertotyrants
Was... this--too close to call?
138 posted on 12/16/2001 2:35:07 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: f.Christian
You on the other hand, sanction the Miami relatives' criminal act because you agree with their cause. I have had quite enough of your inane ramblings.
139 posted on 12/16/2001 3:19:35 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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To: f.Christian
I just dont understand how you can say that I am for tyranny when I have clearly said that I wish to choose for myself and allow you to do the same. This holds true until such time as one of us breaks the law. Elian's relative committed a crime. End of story
140 posted on 12/16/2001 3:25:13 PM PST by thusevertotyrants
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