What has atheism done for us lately?

Centre Daily Times ^ | 12/1/01 | Gary L. Morella

[spunkets]

"We will never be truely free until we have manditory Christian prayer in our public schools."

Can you elaborate on that link between coerced prayer and Freedom?

[Brian Kopp DPM]

LOL.

Home schools rule.

[BMCDA]

To derive a conception of natural law for society one has to regard it as a system and one must analyze how it functions and what its prerequisites are.
A society (herd, pack) consists of agents which cooperate because it offers more benefit than competition (a win-win situation in game theory) e.g. they share food, one warns each other of dangers and a herd can defend itself better than a single animal.
For a society to exist in the long run members of this society should not be a threat to the life of an other member i.e. maiming the other (with killing as worst case) as well as stealing (important in more developed human societies, since there exist(ed) primitive cultures that had no concept of property).
A society is a stable system if it avoids conflicts and indeed every species that lives in herds has a strict hierarchy (yes, there are animals that are more equal than others) and more or less complex rituals that deal with arising conflicts. Since conflicts arise continuously fights that result in severe injuries or even death are not an option because that would be extremely detrimental to the existence of the herd (society, pack) hence the rituals. Unlike humans animals don't know that killing is bad but that's not necessary because those who are very aggressive and have the disposition to kill an other herd member in a fight are likely to have offspring that is also very aggressive and in the long run these individuals die out because they may never have the chance to mate or produce enough offspring so that this trait is inherited.
Of course there are always individuals that are more aggressive or selfish than others but if they show too much of these 'asocial' behaviours they may be ostracised by the others as observed in ape "societies" as far as I know.
One can therefore find out the laws a system follows by observing and analyzing it carefully and yes, one can do that even with such complex systems as human societies.

[Dan Day]

Agnostics are fine--neutral...athiest are God/Truth haters--negative...propagators-carriers of hate-evil!

Wrong, thanks for playing. Don Pardo will now tell the studio audience about your nice parting gifts.

[Dan Day]

But indeed most statists are atheists.

Not in my experience...

But since you made a claim, why don't you take a stab at trying to prove it? This ought to be amusing.

[Dat]

Religion still holds on to the "most innocents killed" title. It will take whole bunch of statists to kill that many humans.

I see this claim touted a lot by atheists, but I've never seen them even attempt to prove it.

[Boucheau]

"Pure BS. Religion will NEVER rival the number of innocents slaughtered by atheistic communistic regimes in the last century. If you honestly believe this, your ignorance is worthy of ridicule."

Shall we take a look at JUST the catholics, kind Sir?

The Roman branch of Christianity has a terrible record of instigating wars in its own interest. Setting aside the promptness of the clergy of every country to support the national authorities without any regard to justice (the Buddhist priests in Japan, the Italian priests in the rape of Abyssinia, the attack on France, etc.), the Papacy has in the course of eleven centuries initiated wars in its own interest, and to the grave injury of the peoples involved, which have helped to retard the progress of civilization and cost tens of millions of lives. The wars it set afoot for the recovery or protection of its temporal possessions from the eighth century, when such wars had millions of victims, to the nineteenth have drained Italy, France, and Germany of blood century after century. The Crusades , summoned by the Popes in whatever spirit they were conducted, led to appalling losses and ended in futility. Scores of times they flung nation against nation because some monarch refused to submit to them and was declared deposed; and they blessed aggressive wars - of the Normans in England, the English in Ireland, etc. - because kings offered to do them feudal service. The Thirty Years War, which according to all historians put back for a century the civilization of half Europe, lost an unknown number - certainly millions - of lives and led to epidemics of vice, was incited by the Papacy and the Jesuits as - their agents. The most amazing feature is that in our own day the Pope can pose as a serene advocate of peace while he incites to war in the interest of his Church as explicitly as Gregory VII or Innocent III did. From the date of his accession (and for some years earlier as Secretary of State) the present Pope repeatedly demanded "the extinction of Bolshevism in Spain, Mexico, and Russia"; that is to say, revolt (aided by Italy and Germany in a savage war) in Spain, the annexation of Mexico by the United States, and war upon Russia by Germany. The entire Catholic Press of the world supported his demand, and it was frequently reproduced (sympathetically) in the Times and other organs. He remained also in close alliance with Japan during its series of vile aggressions, and he attempted to paralyse America's assistance to Britain, when Germany treacherously attacked Russia, by inciting the great body of American Catholics to cause trouble and facilitate that destruction of Russia for which he hoped. Throughout 1946 the Church has made frantic efforts to drive America into war with Russia.

Care to try again? I have proof of hundreds of millions of deaths tied to religion to support my earlier assertion.

Here's something a little bit more up-to-date for ya. Oh, and ridicule til your heart's content.

Country	Main religious groups involved	Type of conflict
Afghanistan	Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims	Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters are in Afghanistan. They are protected by the Taliban dictatorship in the country. Al Quada is generally regarded as having committed many terrorist attacks on U.S. ships, embassies, and buildings. Their goal is to promote a worldwide war between Muslims and non-Muslims. Britain and the U.S. are attacking the Taliban and Al Quada.
Bosnia	Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims	Fragile peace is holding, due to the presence of peacekeepers. 2
Côte d'Ivoire	Muslims, Indigenous, Christian	Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5
Cyprus	Christians & Muslims	The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
India	Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs	Various conflicts that heat up periodically. Situation exacerbated recently by the election of a Hindu nationalist party as the federal government.
Indonesia, province of Ambon	Christians, Muslims	After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation appears to be stable.
Indonesia, currently a province of East Timor	Christians & Muslims	A Roman Catholic country that was forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). 20% of the  population died by murder, starvation or disease. After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. Situation now stable.
Indonesia, province of Halmahera	Christians & Muslims	30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.
Kashmir	Hindus & Muslims	A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details
Kosovo	Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims	Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Kurdistan	Christians, Muslims	Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
Macedonia	Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims	Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East	Jews, Muslims, & Christians	The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of over 400 Palestinians, and about 80 Jews.  Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP and is continuing.
Nigeria	Christians, Animists, & Muslims	Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details
Northern Ireland	Protestants, Catholics	After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and a independent status for the country.
Pakistan	Suni & Shi'ite Muslims	Low level mutual attacks.
Philippines	Christians & Muslims	Low level, centuries old conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country. More details
Russia, Chechnya	Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims	The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.
Serbia, province of Vojvodina	Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics	Serb Ethnic cleansing programs have "encouraged" 50,000 ethnic Hungarians (almost all Roman Catholics) to leave this northernmost province of Yugoslavia. Full story.
South Africa	Animists & "Witches"	Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of black magic, are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka	Buddhists & Hindus	Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a long-standing war for independence with the rest of the country (70% Buddhist)
Sudan	Animists, Christians & Muslims	Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict. Slavery and near slavery practiced. Alleged instances of crucifixion. 3
Tibet	Buddhists & Communists	Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of religion continues. *

[jennyp]

Is not the choice of brain activity as sole arbiter of "life" a bit too subjective for an atheist who leans on "Objective Truth?"

Actually I mean the definition of "personhood", as opposed to, say, an organ that's being kept alive, or a body being kept alive minus the head, etc. I don't know if I can come up with a deductive argument for why a working brain (a mind) is the definitive test for whether there's a person there - it seems almost axiomatic.

I can visualize a headless body being kept alive by machines, and I can visualize a bodyless head being kept alive by machines, but I'll never consider the headless body to be a person. Only the working brain can support memories, personality, thoughts - that which I could have a relationship with. What other criteria could there be that makes sense?

As a physician, I have a hard time with that definition, for, as you seemed to be aware, there are many adults who have little or no brain activity (as well as some on FR :-), and thus may be candidates for "adult abortion."

I don't think it's subjective per se, but nature does give us an extraordinarily fuzzy line between personhood & non-personhood, or life & death. As for an adult who's near brain death, i.e. where there's only some brainstem activity but no discernable higher functions, it seems really tempting to call them dead & move on. I'm sure for the relatives in that situation, the emotional & financial pressures would be there for a lot of people.

The problem with that is, where do you draw the line? There is no bright line there except for complete cessation of activity at the brainstem. Any other criteria seems too prone to the slippery slope, IMO. (Not an expert on neurology, by any means!) Also, how many almost-braindead people have spontaneously come back to life, vs. "really" braindead people? In that case there's an existing mind that has the chance of being recovered. (In the case of embryo abortion of course, there hasn't been a mind there yet to begin with, so that problem doesn't apply at that end of life.)

I'm sure if I was confronted with having to make decisions in that area, I'd have to think & learn a lot more about it. But again, what other criteria for declaring a person dead are there that make sense to you?

[Boucheau]

"I see this claim touted a lot by atheists, but I've never seen them even attempt to prove it."

The post above that I made only scratches the surface. The history is there for your understanding. Try something other than a whimful, and outright rejection of the fact that governments have killed many but not as many as religion.

Try a search on askjeeves.com with the keywords "religious wars", or "religious massacres", or "religious conflict". The proof is easy to find.

For those of you who bring up communism: remember that the communists were "atheists" because they didn't want anything in their way (in the minds and hearts of the masses) of total domination. They sought almost to replace all other religions with their own brand. For example, observe the language and tone that communists utilize in referring to, or describing their leaders. You would think that the Red leaders were near god-like. They saw any other god as a threat to their own rule.

[arielb]

Saddam, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot killed millions and millions of people. They're all atheists

[elfman2]

"Maybe the phrase "atheistic worship" of the state is unfortunate and causes you to misinterpret his essay"

I thought that we covered this very thouroughly in #49, #66, and #74. There's noting new in you #113 post. Actually, the title is part of the article. If fact, it's the most important part of the article. It's what's most remembered, and it's fraudulent. Do you have any evidence that that wasn't the author's original title.

Whether your claim of it being an editor produced title is true or not, you should have noticed the absurdity of it and done something to mitigate it. (Deleted it, changed it, Disclaimed it or whatever.)

Would you have just let the horrendous title that I suggested in #44 upset Christians and then just dryly coming to the defense of the sound but incomplete reasoning within the body of the article?

No, you wouldn't . You either intended to tweak some people with this garbage or you screwed up.

[elfman2]

"Augustine said something like 'usually the man who refuses to believe in God has a reason for wishing He did not exist.' "

That's not only is that wrong, it's self-serving. It looks like an attempt to set up a condition where one is forced to disprove another's wild assertion for it to be discounted. One only has to not be convinced to not believe in a religion.

[elfman2]

" Some atheists theists are good decent moral people. Some atheists theists choose atheism religioun, because it frees them from any moral constraints of Judeo-Christian morality accountability, which is based on the self-revelation of a Creator-God an objectively defined right and wrong."

See, all that's not really unique to religion. But in its defense I can say that it may be somewhat true if applied to non-objectivist atheism, which probably accounts for most atheists.

[elfman2]

" Well, objective truth is either a fact that's plainly evident to the senses, or logically derivable from such facts. "

Well said. And there will be differences of opinion on the truth derived from those facts, just like there are differences of opinion on the interpretation of scriptures. And just like the claim that there is only one version of God's truth, there is only one objective truth for us to discover.

[lavaroise]

I never denied they were not intelligent. I only meant they are so stubborn that when in the wrong, they keep doing wrong, and there is no way for them to look back analyticaly at what they've been doing or saying wrong. Ironicaly the intelligent people in this world got their intelligence through stubborness, but that is a double edged sword.

[Looking for Diogenes]

Saddam Hussein claims to be a practicing Muslim and has built many huge mosques. He pays lip service to religion, at the very least. No way of knowing if he really believes it.