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So You've Bought Yourself a Gun (Part II)
Sierra Times ^ | 11.28.01 | Sunni Maravillosa

Posted on 11/30/2001 7:24:17 AM PST by Gritty

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1 posted on 11/30/2001 7:24:18 AM PST by Gritty
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To: *bang_list
Bang
2 posted on 11/30/2001 7:35:53 AM PST by AStack75
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To: Gritty
Real world firearms training requires a large amount of legal training, lawyer developed lies you need to practice and have ready. You may need to look an officer in the eye someday and say magic words that keep you out of jail.
3 posted on 11/30/2001 7:49:41 AM PST by Reeses
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To: Gritty
BTT
4 posted on 11/30/2001 8:09:04 AM PST by harpseal
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Gritty
BTT
6 posted on 11/30/2001 8:17:25 AM PST by harpseal
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To: Carbon
One of the most important things to do is "Read-The-Manual" (multiple times). And your states laws regarding self-defense. There is no need to lie, and never, never, never, move the body. (In case you're ever on the witness stand .... )
7 posted on 11/30/2001 8:23:02 AM PST by 4CJ
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To: Carbon
Could you elaborate? Under what scenarios?

For example, if you fear you run a high risk of being overpowered by an advancing bad guy and shoot to protect yourself, to stay out of jail you may need to say you believed the assailant appeared to be reaching for a gun even if you were not so sure. An alternative to coloring the story is you can keep totally quiet, though that may cost you a ride to jail, and that tactic is unnatural for most people. Another bit of legal advice is never fire a warning shot, and always quickly shoot to kill. If you space out your shots you may get into trouble for not stopping once the assailant backs off, or you may get sued by the assailant for putting him in a wheelchair. All police receive such legal training one way or another. The script appears almost as boilerplate in newspaper accounts of police shootings.

8 posted on 11/30/2001 8:38:13 AM PST by Reeses
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
There is no need to lie

True, you can keep totally quiet and let your lawyer handle it. That's really the best advice, if you can overrule your emotions and keep quiet. That could mean a ride to jail though.

9 posted on 11/30/2001 8:41:31 AM PST by Reeses
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To: Reeses
The problem with lying is, once you get caught in one, a jury will never believe anything else you say. I'd rather take a ride to jail, and take my chances with a jury made up of people that recognize the right to defend yourself. Don't let your lawyer lie about it either.
10 posted on 11/30/2001 8:46:44 AM PST by 4CJ
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To: Reeses
I was taking a class and the first thing I told a person if they're involved in a shooting was to tell the officer that you were in fear for your life. An officer overheard my remark and told me that I was very wrong. He said the first thing you do if there are witnesses is to immediately inform the officer as to who was at the scene and that they were witnesses.

There is a step by step procedure after a shooting and your first responsibility is to gather your witnesses before they leave the scene. If there are no witnesses, tell the officer that you have to talk to a lawyer first because in the excitement of the moment you don't want to say the wrong thing.

From Ayoob's files, there was a older lady who was being terrorized be a ex-boyfriend. When she had shot him she had closed her eyes and some of the rounds were in the guy's back as he had turned to run. It looked like she had gunned him down in ambush. She tried to explain how the relationship had soured and the first thing she said to the officer was, "He kept on taking my cigarettes". She was charged with murder. The fact that he had broken the door on her traier to get in and ripped the phone lines out didn't enter into the investigation until Ayoob became involved during the trial.

11 posted on 11/30/2001 8:51:10 AM PST by Shooter 2.5
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Gritty
One of the things I noticed in the first article was that carbines (rifles) are not recommended for short range self-defense. Said that the rounds could go right through the assailant without slowing him or her down.

Is this correct? My wife and I had been talking about the need to have a firearm in the house for awhile, and on Sept. 11 we went out and bought a Ruger .22-long range semi-automatic carbine. (All I could afford at the time. Also, there are specific reasons that I won't go into as to why we didn't buy a pistol.)

I purchased hollow-point .22 shells to increase the damage factor, but now I'm not sure that is enough.

The article also mentioned mis-feeds when using a clip. When my seven-year old daughter, and I were practicing at the range for the first time, we had two mis-feeds (jams). Easy enough to clear by just racking it a couple of times, but still caused some concern about how it would function in an emergency situation. Was it caused by bad (Winchester) ammo, or is it just the nature of the beast? The gun was brand new, so it was clean. For that matter, so were the shells.

13 posted on 11/30/2001 10:33:48 AM PST by scan59
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To: scan59
"Ruger .22-long range semi-automatic carbine."
The cartridge is called a .22 long rifle. There are .22 shorts, .22 longs, .22 long rifle, and a host of other rimfire cartridges that are called .22's. Your carbine fires a .22 long rifle cartridge.

"I purchased hollow-point .22 shells"
Proper useage is not "shells", the term is cartridges. No, it's not enough.

Use the manual to take it apart and oil it. That may be all it needed. Inspect the magazine for wear and quit calling it a clip because that's not what it is.

Buy the book, "Complete Guide To Guns And Shooting" by John Malloy.

14 posted on 11/30/2001 11:16:23 AM PST by Shooter 2.5
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To: Gritty
Witnesses may be a two-edged sword. If the only witness around were someone like Sara Brady, would one really want to bother make a point of mentioning that to the investigators?

Eyewitness testimony is also notoriously inaccurate (if we are to believe the folks who investigated TWA 800).

If the physical evidence supports self defense, or at least does not contradict it, and it is collected and recorded adequately, then witnesses become a potential weakness in a legal defense strategy, being strictly hypothetical.

I've read books and articles advising saying nothing until getting a hopefully good lawyer.

15 posted on 11/30/2001 11:28:09 AM PST by SteveH
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To: SteveH
You brought up some good points. It would be very important to make sure they are your witnesses instead of the other side's. I doubt you would have a lot of time to figure out who you can trust or not. If there is an owner or a manager of the business that it took place in, that would be the first person I would try to get on my side. Someone who would have an interest in justice being done.

I remember a guy that I had to take business trips with. By the time the week was over, everyone in the hotel, the restaurants and the meeting place knew him as a nice guy. It wouldn't be a bad habit to get into to have dozens of people that you come in contact with to consider you one of the good guys, especialy while we're carrying. You reminded me of something. One time, that guy was being bothered by a troublemaker, and the manager TRIED TO HAND HIM A GUN! He didn't take it and everything worked out alright.

16 posted on 11/30/2001 12:08:43 PM PST by Shooter 2.5
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To: Reeses
For example, if you fear you run a high risk of being overpowered by an advancing bad guy and shoot to protect yourself, to stay out of jail you may need to say you believed the assailant appeared to be reaching for a gun even if you were not so sure.

I would think that the truth (the person was advancing aggressively and you were in reasonable fear of loss of your own life or limb) would be sufficient.

An alternative to coloring the story is you can keep totally quiet, though that may cost you a ride to jail, and that tactic is unnatural for most people.

It's very reasonable (and undoubtedly, IMO, the best policy) to simply say that, in light of the seriousness of having had to use lethal force to defend yourself, and in light of the need to communicate accurately what happened, you would prefer not to make a statement prior to calming down and consultation with a good lawyer.

Once words are said, they can't be retrieved.

Another bit of legal advice is never fire a warning shot, and always quickly shoot to kill. If you space out your shots you may get into trouble for not stopping once the assailant backs off, or you may get sued by the assailant for putting him in a wheelchair.

Interesting point. Too bad it comes down to that.

17 posted on 11/30/2001 12:31:12 PM PST by butter pecan fan
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To: scan59
I've only really delved into my firearms education in the past year or so, so take my comments with the appropriate amount of sodium chloride.

One of the things I noticed in the first article was that carbines (rifles) are not recommended for short range self-defense. Said that the rounds could go right through the assailant without slowing him or her down.

Is this correct? My wife and I had been talking about the need to have a firearm in the house for awhile, and on Sept. 11 we went out and bought a Ruger .22-long range semi-automatic carbine. (All I could afford at the time. Also, there are specific reasons that I won't go into as to why we didn't buy a pistol.)

I purchased hollow-point .22 shells to increase the damage factor, but now I'm not sure that is enough.

It really depends on the ammunition and shot placement.  For instance, .223Rem full metal jacket rounds (the ammo used in most AR style rifles like the M-16) are pretty devastating since, from what I've read, the trajectory changes a few inches into the body, making the innards look like they were put through a blender (I understand that .223's don't really tumble like some people say).  If you get a rifle chambered for a larger round, you might want to look for soft-point ammunition, also called Dum-Dums, or frangible rounds.  Soft points are just like a full metal jacketed round, except for the tip which has exposed lead.  It causes greater bullet expansion when it hits a solid object, making for a larger wound.  Frangible ammo are rounds that have been designed to split into smaller pieces when it hits a target.  That's beneficial in two ways since 1) one round will make more holes in an attacker, and 2) it won't go through walls to possibly strike a family member on the other side.  As a caveat, I know of a couple makers of frangible handgun ammo (air marshals use this kind of cartridge, btw), but haven't run across rifle munitions of this type.  The previous statement doesn't apply to .22lr ammo since it's not a jacketed round and don't think it comes in frangible rounds either.  Personally, I think the .22 is a little small for self-defense since COM (center-of-mass) hits probably won't do much to stop an attacker high on PCP or crystal meth, but as the saying goes: a .22 you have is worth more than a .357 you don't.

You might also want to consider a shotgun.  If the recoil from a 12gauge is to much, try a 20gauge or .410.  Like the frangible rounds I mentioned above, #7 shot or higher shouldn't pass through walls, and it makes alot more holes in the bad guy.

The article also mentioned mis-feeds when using a clip. When my seven-year old daughter, and I were practicing at the range for the first time, we had two mis-feeds (jams). Easy enough to clear by just racking it a couple of times, but still caused some concern about how it would function in an emergency situation. Was it caused by bad (Winchester) ammo, or is it just the nature of the beast? The gun was brand new, so it was clean. For that matter, so were the shells.

Jams are an inherent risk in using an auto-loading firearm (that's why many people, me included, advocate double action revolvers and/or pump action shotguns for home defense).  As far as why you're having jams, bad ammo is a possibility.  Winchester, especially white box, tends to be jam-o-matic ammo in my experience.  If you can, try different brands of ammo and see which one(s) your rifle will eat.  Also, make sure you maintain your rifle.  Just because your rifle was new doesn't mean it was "clean".  There might be cosmoline (packing grease) in the action that's causing the failures to feed. Also, lead ammo is inherently dirty, imo.  If you didn't start getting jams until the 500th round, it might be due to lead build up.  Another possibility is the magazines.  Are they new?  If they're used, they might have weak springs that need replacing, which shouldn't be more than a few dollars.

And for a parting thought, if you haven't taken a safety course, PLEASE TAKE ONE.  You'll learn all kinds of nifty stuff, plus you'll make some friends that can help you out with problems one-on-one.

Hope this helps.

18 posted on 12/01/2001 3:08:37 AM PST by Tree of Liberty
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To: Shooter 2.5
You were a little abbrasive with scan59, don't you think? We both know what he was talking about and those that don't can simply ask for clarification. I'm sure he'll pick up the "proper" parlance in due course.
19 posted on 12/01/2001 3:13:08 AM PST by Tree of Liberty
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To: scan59
One more thing: I presume you're shooting a Ruger 10/22. I've got one too and have had problems with Butler Creek pre-ban magazines causing failures-to-feed due to not sitting properly in the magazine well. The factory mags have worked fine for me, though. Don't know if this is what's causing your problem, but just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one to have FTF problems with the 10/22.
20 posted on 12/01/2001 3:18:15 AM PST by Tree of Liberty
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