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Pro-Gun Experts Prove Handguns Are Ineffective Self-Defense Tools(VPC BS ALERT)
VPC - ^ | November 19 | Naomi Seligman

Posted on 11/19/2001 12:49:32 PM PST by Dan from Michigan

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To: Luis Gonzalez
I don't question that in your case that is the truth, I seriously doubt that you can convince me that ALL gun owners are "more responsible" than your average citizen,

By and large, legal gun owners are exceptionally more law abiding than the average citizen. Their children far less likely to be involved in criminal behavior, and a whole slew of positive demographics. Also, on average, they are about half as likely to shoot the wrong person to death as are police (There are several reasons for this, some of which are not relevant for air-marshalls).

if that where the case, there would be zero instances of little kids accidentally shooting themselves with their parent's guns.

Actually, for "little kids" that's down there with choking to death on grapes, and lower than each toilet bowls and buckets.

201 posted on 11/20/2001 1:16:02 PM PST by lepton
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I don't question that in your case that is the truth, I seriously doubt that you can convince me that ALL gun owners are "more responsible" than your average citizen,

By and large, legal gun owners are exceptionally more law abiding than the average citizen. I forgot to mention that as of 1990, the only lawfully owned automatic weapon used in a crime had been a police officer.

After all of that, don't think I'm sniping a t police officers. I am not. It's just that those with CCWs and such represent a very law-abiding cross-section.

202 posted on 11/20/2001 1:18:36 PM PST by lepton
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I own a gun, I don't recall the test to determine my level of responsibility during the permitting proccess, is that unique to your State?

It's rather self-selecting. If you understand firearms, and expect others to have them as well, generally you will not act in ways that bring them into use. Ever heard of a gun-fight at a gun-show?

203 posted on 11/20/2001 1:20:43 PM PST by lepton
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To: Luis Gonzalez
For fear of their lives? I don't think that the guy whose mission was to crash an airplane into a building was really concerned with his own survival.

Perhaps not, but fear of failure would be up there.

204 posted on 11/20/2001 1:21:52 PM PST by lepton
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To: Aric2000
Well, if he was shot dead before he got a chance to crash the plane, then he would think twice about boarding that aircraft.

hehehe :)

I know what you mean.

205 posted on 11/20/2001 1:22:48 PM PST by lepton
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To: Luis Gonzalez
George, these "morons" hold up pawn shops, liquor stores...the true morons don't care whether there are guns there or not.

Then why arm the Sky Marshalls?

206 posted on 11/20/2001 1:24:43 PM PST by lepton
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To: Luis Gonzalez
BTW, in case there is any doubt, I am merely debating with you. :)
207 posted on 11/20/2001 1:27:16 PM PST by lepton
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To: Beelzebubba
Don't foget, that if those other 51 people would have been armed, they probably would be here still to tell all just how "ineffective" their handguns really were!
208 posted on 11/20/2001 1:29:15 PM PST by Coopertown Bob
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To: Dan from Michigan
....basically impossible to use effectively in self-defense.

Tell that to any criminal that has been shot dead.

209 posted on 11/20/2001 1:40:19 PM PST by TankerKC
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To: lepton
No doubt man.

No problem.

You have the sky marshalls there for the same reaon that you send in trained troops into Afghanistan, and not a bunch of homeowners from Duluth who want to show these idiots what's what.

Intense, specific training. Trained to deal with hostage situations. Professionals.

These terrorists are highly trained commandos, I think that citizens would do more harm than good.

We can debate this endlessly, but neither one of us has real data to throw around. We can discuss all the good that guns do to prevent crime in the streets, I just think that the situation os quite different when you are 35,000 feet in the air, and dealing with trained killers rather than junkies looking for a VCR.

"Actually, for "little kids" that's down there with choking to death on grapes, and lower than each toilet bowls and buckets."

What? No grapes on airplanes? Damn!

Negligence is negligence, and I was responding to someone who used an absolute term in relation with the level of reponsible behavior of ALL gun owners.

"Perhaps not, but fear of failure would be up there."

Maybe, or maybe the gunfight in and of itself was the mission. A few mid-air gunfights between armed passengers and terrorists and people start driving places instead of flying. The true goal of 9/11 was more economic than the murder of the people in the buildings.

210 posted on 11/20/2001 1:59:30 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Luis Gonzalez
"George, these "morons" hold up pawn shops, liquor stores."

LG, Nah. "Those" morons can't afford the plane fare. They spend the loot too fast on booze and drugs. And maybe a bigger gun. Peace and love, George.

211 posted on 11/20/2001 3:21:54 PM PST by George Frm Br00klyn Park
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To: George Frm Br00klyn Park
"Those" morons can't afford the plane fare. They spend the loot too fast on booze and drugs."

LOL!!

True, true...

212 posted on 11/20/2001 3:34:30 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez
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To: Dan from Michigan
Well, this is a late post and I'm sure someone else has already brought up this point, but here goes:

In fact, in 1998, for every time that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 51 people lost their lives in handgun homicides alone. Yet, there have been an increasing number of news reports that women are a prime target for the gun industry as first-time handgun buyers. Left out of those reports is the fact that in 1999 for every one time a woman used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 120 women were murdered with handguns.

This statistic actually shows the NECESSITY of owning firearms. People are being murdered in far larger numbers than they are defending themselves. Don't you think that if more people owned handguns (and knew how to use them), that this homicide to defense ratio would be much smaller?

It's ironic that the very statistics the gun-grabbers use to defend their position actually support the private ownership of guns for self-defense.

213 posted on 11/20/2001 5:32:00 PM PST by Come get it
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To: miss print; KLT
Thanks miss print for your post #158...superb. (and appropriately placed in this thread!)
214 posted on 11/20/2001 7:20:23 PM PST by ChaseR
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To: Dan from Michigan
And I just got a reply from Mas too...

"THese people have been twisting the truth for so long that they've become shameless about it."

I wish that he could threaten them with some sort of a law suit, requiring them to do a public retraction...

Mark

215 posted on 11/20/2001 8:13:17 PM PST by MarkL
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To: MarkL
I want VPC and Josh Suckermann, I mean Sugarmann, out of business.

It won't happen. They can just call George Soros, the Joyce Foundation, Tides Foundation, Andrew McKelvey, etc and get more money.

It still would be great to put them on defense. The Anti-Self Defense lobby wasted 280,000 here in Michigan on a referendum drive(that was tossed in the courts). Most of the money came from Andrew McKelvey and the Tides Foundation(McKelvey has ties to that as well). That's our problem. These foundations and deep pockets of the McKelveys of the world.

216 posted on 11/20/2001 8:23:22 PM PST by Dan from Michigan
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To: Pissed Off Janitor
"98% of all encounters between an armed citizen and a criminal end with the criminal either surrendering or fleeing."

Thanks--I hadn't seen the actual statistics for that specific point--I figured it had to be about that ratio, but I didn't have actual facts at hand.

217 posted on 11/21/2001 4:10:42 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: dirtboy
"The reason is crystal clear - the truth has the same impact on the VPC arguments as sunlight has on vampires, and for the exact same reason..."

ROFLAMAO!! You put that SOOOO well.

218 posted on 11/21/2001 4:12:43 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Dan from Michigan
The headline should read: "VPC Grasps At Straws To Try And Prove That Handguns Are Ineffective Self-Defense Tools"
219 posted on 11/21/2001 4:20:18 AM PST by Destructor
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To: Syncro
O.K., this is closer to what you were really asking: I do not believe that State and Local gun laws/rights are abridged just because a citizen ventures into the water. Try Pepper-Spray. It works well, is quiet (until it takes effect!), is safe for the boat, legal most places, and will "protect" you against dangerous animals too. Ever been attacked by a water rat? I was merely growled-at by one in my "friendly, inhabited Manhattan," and throwing a brick at it only made it hiss at me louder. Didn't even move! "selfdefenseproducts.com" has Habanero pepper-based spray that really, really works. Good luck and happy boating. I envy you.
220 posted on 11/21/2001 10:45:51 AM PST by PoorMuttly
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