Posted on 11/16/2001 1:19:07 PM PST by Magician
You Republicans just don't get it, even when your being hit in the face with a damned 2x4!
Will you will stay loyal to this party as it CREATES A FEDERAL POLICE FORCE!!
This stuff is TREASON! And the people who support these parties are also guilty of TREASON.
The quote from the recently passed patriot act is most relevant here: "Section 802 defines domestic terrorism as engaging in "activity that involves acts dangerous to human life that violate the laws of the United States or any state and appear to be intended: (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping."
"and appear to be intended....", Yes, this is the largest of the blank check parts.
Along with all the other various power grabbing that has gone on over the years. We are in the high tech police state now. Most deny it until something happens to them personally, or to a close relative or associate. That usually changes their views. It's after the fact though. Maybe it hasn't happened to a lot of people-yet. And that's the hardest part to get across in any manner which might be construed as "media' from an internet forum to a television special, why there is such a shift of views and schism. People who have not yet become a victim of governmental injustice in any "big" way simply deny that it has happened to anyone else, except perhaps in a really vague way. Some have been victims, some have had "connected positions" where they have first hand knowledge of instituionalised abuses. Some come from neither of those two realities, and some from both.
The political labels of "liberal" or "conservative", or democrat or republican, are actually not nearly as important as "not yet become much of a victim" and "seriously victimised" to all the way to "victimiser"-the latter NEVER admited to by anyone. Not one person will admit to actually victimising someone when they were in a position of power or authority, even when they can remain anonymous about it.
I will give an anlogy that fits here, smaller scale, but similar. I worked two years in a pretty big gunshop. In that two year period we had at least around 200+ women come in to purchase "a gun". That's what they would say, we could tell almost immediately that this was one of "those cases", the body language, the fear, the stark sobriety, the sadness and seriousness evident. The women had been victims of a crime, or someone close to them, it got easy to see the differences. they would usually preface their browsing and purchase with something along these lines "well, I never believed in guns before, but...."--and then there would be (once in awhile anyway, it happened enough to see) some sob story of a rape, or really bad spousal abuse, or a robbery or whatever. It was easy to see the difference between a normal customer and one coming in from sheer necessity. They had previously lived in fantasyland, in pre-victomhood, arrogant and proud of their total knowledge that THEY would never be a victim, convinced so totally in their mindffs that they missed way tyoo many clues, then whammo-a victim, a totoal shock and surprise. No amount of "hearing" about crime or personal violence had ever convinced them that it really, really was true, it remained theoretical. It was only on TV or something, it wasn' t real yet. Once it became real, THEN they believed it, always one step past the point of practicality.
Conservatives have a cliche about this, but to hear the stories in person it becomes clearer "A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet". This would probably be admitted to quite readily by most folks on this forum, but if you take it to society/government/politics as a whole level, then it once again falls into the "you are nuts, that would never happen here" territory again, by people whom nothing like that has happened to. They instantly fall back into pre-victomhood status, denying the encroaching "badness" around them, it will remain theoretical until after the fact of practicality to "do" anything about it. They will be content to be the politically conscious equivalent of the million mom march, to even insist that pre-victomhood status is the ultimate place to remain, all the way insisting that the stories of previous victims are 'fantasy" and "it can't happen" and any other specious argument, exactly like the person who needed a gun for protection, but denied it vehemently in advance of their personal victomhood.
Until their unwillingness to look beyond the obvious becomes sublimated by events, they will remain in that state of pre-victomhood. It has to actuality smacks them in the face-but by then, too late, once again one step past the point of practicality.
Millions are just not ever going to believe that their own government might just abuse them, especially if their latest personality cult figure is "in power". This conservative activist population saw it quite clearly with klintgoon, it's a topic daily and universally acknowledged, as it should be, but it remains to be seen if they will see it happening on this particular bounce cycle.
Some people give way too much thought to what any particular good ole boy party is going to do for them. I think it's a bit more practical to look at what is going to be done TO them instead. Big difference there, the words 'for" and 'to". Government does BOTH. Party politics to a great many, especially activists, are way, way more important than actually sublimating that and being an american first, being a soverign first, and looking at various events and players in that context. To be practical about matters, in BOTH the short and long haul. Not just the short haul.
There is no "vote" in the totality of government. Several million people are not "voted on" yea or nay each 2 or 4 year cycle. Only a very minute and tiny fraction of government is available to be looked at and 'voted on", this is why there is never much in the way of any sort of change back to honest government-the bulk of them stay in power, throughout the years.. It doesn't change, and it really doesn't matter a huge amount those very tiny percentages who swap seats every 2 or 4 years, not really, not in any large practical terms.
Dishonest people have a habit of being -dishonest. Abusive people have a habit of being - abusive. They tend to want to grab as much as they can, so they seek out those positions where this can be accomplished on a larger scale, and with less risk to them of either being found out, or if found out, to still skate, to "get away with it".
In time-which happened long ago-they became the bulk of management in "government". They are in both major political parties. They are definetly present in the agencies who are given badges and guns, definetly present. they are definetly prsent in the various and sundry bureaucracies. They are definetly present in the international business world, where huge sums are available to purchase policy, to actually buy outright governmental "action".
We may-to assuage collective conscious-call this "lobbying" or "campaign contributions", but in reality this is "bribery", simply put. From the 5 dollar check locally to the awarding of multi billion dollar contracts, or to set in motion the wheels of vast armies perhaps- it goes on. Someone passes cash A to person with authority or seeking authority B, to influence outcome C somehow, the scale doesn't matter. It's purchased, it's bought and sold, some is more open than others, but it's still a commodity, not really all that different from any other commodity.
Now what has happened is that "outcomes" were noticed long ago to be extremely better if you are in a position to force the outcome, perhaps "overstepping" previous boundaries. it's human nature to push the envelope on 'boundaries", and once these boundaries are crossed in enough numbers that they no longer exist-US/Mexico border is a tangible example,then they exist only in theory anymore. It's the same with political power, or military power-any sort of boundary. The ones with the authority will always seek to gain more, and more, and more, and more , and MORE-and in this country they have seized quite a bit, many, many boundaries were crossed so repeatedly over the years, that once again like the physical us/mexico boundary, they only exist in theory not in any sort of real sense.
Wildly accepting the fact that this government has every attention of completely crossing any boundary they want to, as long as they have an "excuse", is in my estimation being just like the ladies who were "not believing in guns" until something bad happens to them personally. It's a "bad idea". It is exalting in pre-victimhood status.
The recent "attacks on america" are as most people would admit, a reflection on something that 'went wrong" somehow. Well, duh, yep, it did. What 'went wrong" was that for decades now, the "boundary" of accountability in government has been crossed so repeatedly it does not exist, and when the cvhips were down they fell apart. The authority they seized got larger, government got lazier and more corrup[t and just plain more stupid, it took more money and power to make more profits for itself, and to get more power, a vicious circle.
We had these 'attacks on america' because government has taken over too much power for itself, and has neglected it's duties, both of those things. Government assumed the power that taking away our right to be armed was 'better", in favor of "them" being armed in any day to day practical sense. But that just lead exactly to the civilian airliners being taken over by a small handful of criminals.
Governments solution now? Nothing more than to assume more power, when they abused it in the past, and this is being wildly cheered on! We are seeing here the phenomenon of abusive and incompetent government being REWARDED for a really, really, really bad series of total blunders and malefeasances, with being given MORE power to keep on doing what they have been doing, just bigger and more extensive than in the past! It's schizophrenic, but there ya go, the million mom (and dad) march of "the party" first, over what would really work. Some really just want their party to be dominant so they can abuse-back as they see themselves as being abused in the past. There is little altrusim or actual service, it's more just a token revenge deal, and they will trade less freedom for the opportunity either directly or by proxy to engage in-well, atrocities. Quid pro quo, but carried beyond even an eye for an eye.
There is a lynchmob bloodlust to the angle here that is undeniable. What the bulk of the lynchmob doesn't understand is that when 1/2 the people lynched over the years might not exactly have been 'guilty as charged", that maybe they were actually vbictims, too, that it could happen to them, they might out of the blue see themselves the focus of the lynchmob, but then it will be too late to think about being part of a "mob"-any mob, any name.
The concept of the secret tribunal, the "star chamber' is just not that new or original in concept. It's really a tired old deal that has been repeatedly tried, and it has always ended up being massively abused, no matter how 'righteous" it first was perceived. Many in the pre-victimhood status will not perceive that particlar quality to this concept, they will only see who the first customers are. They have forgotten the fact that in past history, the 'secret tribunals" have always become a store open to the general public, not just a selected class of customers.
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This religious worship of a document that simply provides a framework for free people to govern themselves by is getting ridiculous. ---------- blab, snip
snip, blab --------------- We Americans are not afraid that we will lose the rights because we stop following a piece of paper that non-Americans are hiding behind, and the government knows that too! The last thing this government wants is to face the mob that awaits them if they work against us. This is a righteous fight and if you don't like it screw you!
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Incredible.
--- You say our constitution need not be followed, that its just a paper 'framework'. - Then follow up with yet another personal insult.
Why don't you take your type of 'righteous fight' to another forum, seeing that you can't seem to follow either the principles or the guidelines of this one?
We have got to destroy all those islamic muslim arab hate cells, here in USA and around the world!
Not everyone sees it yet, but I have been most heartened to see here and there some capital r's on this board publically state similar, showing they are thinking instead of parroting like everyone should be. We can all have differences in this or that issue, but when it comes down to all of our's basic rights, we should be united, firmly standing together, and forget about partisan politics. Those who would use this emergency situation to push a partisan political party or cult figure agenda at the expense of our basic concept of the nation are to be condemened, and encouraged to think differently on the matter.
The goonking and his blind goose stepping legions of followers in the past 8 years were to be condemend when they did it, we need to be honest about it as well, whenever the opportunity is shown to be imminent and warranted, when we need to do it, to always take the moral and legal high ground, ABOVE party politics.. It's a case by case basis, and it's not all black and white, even though some insist it is..
It is more than possible to fight this current war against the jihaders, withoput losing one single freedom. Shrub has a choice in the matter, I could care less what he says, I will judge him on what happens. so far, at best, I'm giving him a C-. I mean, really, rah rah rah, ANYONE with the resources at his disposal can go over to boogorillastan someplace and bomb the crap out of them. it honestly doesn't reqwuire much in the way of cohesive thought, the military comes pre-built, he uses it off the shelf. I'll be WAY more impressed when he "get's it" on a return of constitutional government. I would have been more impressed if he had the fortiotude to get on the teevee and once and for all time come clean on the governmenst views towards the various bill of rights, just read them off, go right down the list, read them in english, have ashcroft standing alongside him, and state that we now are enjoying a constitutional government where our needs and wants and rights come first, not international intrigue and international corporate profits. where they conflict, they CEASE to be promoted by government. If we have un-american gomers in this nation from foreign lands, they get REMOVED, end of story, not allowed to stay here and have government create some vast new sneeky police force-it ain't NEEDED, it's really not, and it's harmful! He needs to go back,and take a gander at the real laws on the books, and most of the foreigners here would have to adios. Take a look at the second amendment, he needs to go even further than he's gone so farm admit it says what it says in english that human beings speak, not a foreign language that lawyers speak, and apply the federal governments resources to guaranteeing that right as intended-tell ya, no nation or group of gomers would even think about messin with us.
So far, he hasn't, he's done the opposite, or tippy toes around a lot, anyone who can be honest enough to give the situation a fair assessment can see that. There's mumblings and talk about things, then action. I see *some* action, but it's no further than any city councilmen in east podunk could have come up with it. I mean, really, that's it. Yep, al queda was most likely the bad guys, a heap of them are in afghaniieland, so lets go bomb em. Well, DUH, of course. lemme see, that took 4.5 braincells less than a second to figger that out. Now for step two, where THINKING is required. I'll let the frantic flag wavers stand over there and do there thang, that's cool, but we need a scosh more than that right now, and stripping 270 millions of folks freedoms insteads of kicking out a few million folks who shouldn't be here is the wrong solution. I ain't standing around ignoring that and waving the flag on THAT noise! Just because he's some human being who is a "non-clinton" human being, doesn't mean he's all wise and all knowing. I classify tht in the "big deal" category, most people aren't near the level of slime that clinton was, it's EASY to be a "non-clinton", this should just be "normal". It's been around a year now, time to move on down the line a little bit more, yep, CLINTON AIN'T IN, so let's get on with stuff here. It's not remarkably special, it's not to be fanatacised about like it's something "miraculous", it's just another gimme, or it dang should be anyway.
It's still early, but it might get worse, I really don't know. I am more than concerned with the conduct of this so-called 'war", in the first place, it ain't remotely legal-it certainly is justified, but he needs to go back to square one one afternoon and do it legally, as any decent first step.
We didn't fight the election last novemeber to elect someone who just issues edicts and orders, nope,the goonking and his minions gave us plenty of that noise to last for a long time. I certainly didn't anyway. I was looking for "honest change", not just flipping over the same record and calling it a different band.
From one of my favorite 'Founding Fathers'....
redrock
"Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
Can you spell DICTATORSHIP?
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