Islam and The Others

Reading the Mind of Islam | 1995 | Hassan Hathout

[Lent]

Seriously, though ... I'd really like to host a thread with you on the question of Israel and Judaism. I'll see if I can't find an appropriate post that touches on some questions I have (and have been asking ad infinitum).

This is a fundamentally important issue on the reformability of Islam. See above post on Pan Arab Nationalism. I'll illustrate more particularly if necessary.

[watchin]

Holy war is not an invention of modern "radicals". It's an invention of Muhammed, and has been practiced pretty much continually for a thousand years.

You say you've read this propaganda piece a few times since 9/11. May I suggest you read the koran and a few books on the history of Islam? Maybe one written by a muslim, one by a Christian, and one by an "objective" rank heathen.

I appreciate your efforts at understanding and embracing muslims. I just think your being suckered.

[dennisw]

You know a lot about Catholicism. More than I know about Judaism. But I know enough about the three religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism to know that Islam is very bad news. I know enough about the history of these three religions to know that Islam is very bad news.
Another factor is my visit to Jerusalem a few years back for ten days. I saw where the 50 synagogues were that were dynamited by your lovely Muslims in 1948. Of course I went to the Western Wall a few times and this shapes my opinions. I could look up at that Golden Islamic Dome of the Rock looming above the Western Wall. This dome visually dominates this sector of Jerusalem and this still is not good enough for the Islamics.

A Jew is forced to look at the Dome but a Muslim is not forced to look at the Western Wall. This in a nutshell is what the Muslim desire to dominate is all about. Islam is the last thing from a live, and let live, way of life or religion.

 

[RnMomof7]

An abomination before God

I fear the one world religion is now being formed!

[Askel5]

I appreciate all of your comments, actually.

I'm not speaking lightly in the least when I say I consider Islam a heresy and -- furthermore -- a horrifically successful heresy in direct proportion to its veneration of a self-styled mouthpiece for God whose writings include some truly heinous exhortations to proactive violence and the presuming of God's judgment on others in the name of God.

And, to be honest, my mention of "American Trust" publications (as well as my noting of certain "reformist" leanings and "New World Order" mentions in the book) are indicative of my reading his book with all due caution.

I'm more than happy to see substantive support and REBUTTAL of what he has to say. I find it full of holes myself ... but that's only natural given my understanding of Islam as a conflicted heresy.

I'm happy to post something more strong with regard to erroneous Islam's perpetually falling prey to the worst in terms of materialist, violent and totalitarian conflict with others ... it's just that my Belloc posts get deleted, that's all. =)

[Askel5]

P.S. ... Were it not for his staunch support of human life (as based on his take of the Quran) at the end of the book, I probably wouldn't be posting him at all.

He's got some magnificent arguments and his respect for life appears unequivocal ... that's probably the main reason I'm comfortable using him to the extent I am in this instance.

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT

[Republic of Texas]

Nice try by the good Dr., I just ain't buying.

[independentmind]

And, had "radical Islam" truly enjoyed a unbroken continuity, I doubt very seriously it would have needed the organizing, training, sponsorship and continued support of Soviet and Chinese communists.

It's like pretending the IRA suddenly pulled itself up by its own bootstraps when, in actuality, it was just a matter of the Soviets' finally appreciating and electing to control the potential for an IRA contribution to World Revolution.

Aren't you ignoring the fact that radical Islam existed prior to Communism? I am baffled as to why you think that all sorts of radicalism need to be explained in terms of Communism. Maybe a better way of looking at the issue is that departures from truth may cause radicalism, which is a form of irrationality.

A good lesson to be learned is that history does not often repeat itself exactly. The progression of history may be better understood as the combination of the novel and recurrent.

[Askel5]

I am baffled as to why you think that all sorts of radicalism need to be explained in terms of Communism

Besides the fact there exist incontrovertible ties between the leninists and radicals (particularly terrorists) the world over and it's the leninists who've networked, trained, supported and controlled "radical" politicians, students, academics, clerics and terrorists throughout the world as a part of their long-range strategy ... particularly where the "period of escalating violence" or the clenched fist to the face of the all-too accommodating West was concerned?

I guess because communism brought militant atheism to a certain perfection. The pull of evil on the human psyche -- the temptation to Uber-status in Utopia -- surely is as ancient as serpent in the Garden.

In all my talks with so-called atheists on these boards, none has yet to offer me the convincing evidence that their so-called "pagans" were truly atheist. They proffer arguments of this man against polytheism and such as if it were somehow equivalent to the incredibly sophisticated (for all its namby-pamby New Age gloss) and decidedly deadly modern militant atheists.

It's not just that "personal interpretation" -- whether that of Mohammed, some lobotomized Bibliolator or your average Enlightened-to-death protestant -- has reached a climax of incoherence. Lending any credence or weight to "Personal values" being the height of conceit in light of deconstruction, historicism, relativism and other atomistic models leading straight to the Noosphere void. Rabid individualism and the faux "tolerance" that is equating Falsehood with Truth out of respect for another "Self-Esteem" practically MANDATES a coalesced man utterly devoid of meaning or purpose (all personal meanings and personal objectives being equally meaningless and ripe for control by the Conditioners who codify "hate crimes").

Rather, it's that we've reached a perfection of slaughter as well ... literally preventing conception, offing in the womb and exterminating en masse the "Unwanted" in the preliminary stages of population reduction.

How much more clear about their intent must they get?

I've been trying to use "militant atheist" in lieu of communist where possible so as to give credit where credit is due (to the Hegemon's cunning legalists and our dead-eyed bankers) but seems to me I should keep using "communist" if, for no other reason, than it's making a certain comeback now that most have swallowed perestroika hook, line and sinker and tend to giggle at the idea of there still being "communists".

That said ... I base my arguments on three things:

(1) Islam's Inexplicable Rise from the Ashes

The fact that Islam was in a seriously disparate funk of decline until consciousnesses were "raised" and cells were organized by the Soviets ... including the Soviets who sponsored terrorists like Begin and globalist sympathizers of all stripes who supported the confection of Israel (as flashpoint and East/West fulcrum) to focus the Middle East and jam a thorn in paw of the Pan-Arab states.

Conflict over resources and geopolitical control became more easily managed through the prism of Israel and the canny could enjoy a certain insight to intelligence and influence over the affairs of the United States all the while.

Strangely enough, the use of "Islam" is not in any way restricted to the Middle East but is strangely purposed here at home. Perhaps if I didn't have ASK for a copy of the 'Nation of Islam' newspaper the young black men in suits sell at the intersections on Elysian Fields, I might have some notion that the rise of "Islam" were a genuine, "grassroots" sort of affair. Instead, I find it a revolution from above along the lines of the Catholic "Call to Action" or "Renew" programs which seek to organize the faithful to an agenda.

(2) The Essential Atomism at the Heart of a Coalesced Mankind

The consistent strain of "personal interpretation" seems inevitably to lead toward leninist lockstep domination of thought, especially among ALL People of the Book ...

1. whether it's Jews who must righteously accept, nay demand, the the state of Isreal as the world's (and the US's) obligation to recognize God's promise to them as the Chosen People. (i.e., If you don't support Israel, you're a bad Jew or a Jew-hater.)

2. whether it's Muslims conditioned to run with the more abhorrent elements of Mohammed's heresy history proves are extremely effective.

3. or whether it's Christians encouraged to adulterate their faith in the name of "tolerance" and embrace instead a wholly politicized and materialistic Social Worker take on the "Gospel as Character Training" by our Favorite Philospher.

It's that old magic Number 3 again. (Something just irrestible about that dynamic, even for dead-eyed Third Way fellow travelers.)

It's triangulation. It only serves to perpetuate certain sacrosanct geopolitical constructs even as it (1) seeks the ruin of Islam (through the resurrection of radicalism that can only ensure a daisy-cutter correction applied Serbia-style indiscriminately by "moral" Christians who no longer fight Just Wars but mete out Hammurabi-style justice with Pontius Pilate's Clean Hands); (2) seeks the ruin of Christianity through the reduction of Christ to philosopher; and, (3) seeks the ruin of Judaism by placing the state of Israel somehow before God and Abraham.

If I were a militant atheist, I'd find it very helpful to frame for the world the FACT that even the People of the Book can't agree to stop killing each other and that this God-thing at best is some kind of trickster whose Word cannot be trusted to end in anything BUT bloodshed. I'd find this very helpful for encouraging folks to take what I FOUND TO BE the useful bits of religion and bag the rest as I promised Peace at the point of gun and Justice maintained by affirmative action and Hate Crime legislation.

(3) It's the same-old same-old

I see no reason Evil can't make true Progress in the world even if it be based on lies. There is the ungodly efficient mass genocide of human life in the hundreds of millions (by communists, fascists and abortuaries who liquidate human life en masse). Even more telling -- there's the consistent assault on Common Sense that's brutalized souls and left us, in large part, a drugged people with a vampirish lust for non-procreative sex which never sates and strangely fixated on "reality" entertainment revolving around the calculated building of coalitions only to better manipulate the Useful and cull the Unwanted.

So if I'm profoundly respectful of the leninist's virtuosity and documented achievement in this regard, it's just because they've accomplished in one century an unprecedented success in Killing the Unwanted and Re-forming the Useful into New Men.

I certainly don't mean to denigrate or ignore the really breathtaking contributions to evil which utopianism (fascist, Maoist, theocratic, materialist, technological ... what have you) have offered throughout human history. I'm just truly impressed by the communist mind as the most cunning, committed and compelling manifestation of purposed evil the planet's ever seen.

Perhaps I was just unduly influenced by the likes of Whittaker Chambers as a youngster. I tend to agree with him that the world had not seen the likes of Christianity's rise until leninism swept the globe and seeped like acid into the brains of the unsuspecting.

Hearkening back to my initial statement, I don't presume for a moment to believe that Christian truths cannot be found elsewhere in the world. There are no holes in the Catholic cosmos, as you know. It's just that they reached a decided perfection of confirmation and revelation in the Incarnation, that's all.

In the past couple years, I've grown to regret the misunderstanding I used to have where the Jews as "Chosen People" were concerned. (Though, on the other hand, I respect far more as "faithful Jews" those who DON'T proselytize or pretend it's of any consequence whether the goyim "convert" into Jews ... =)

Without a doubt, indeed they are God's chosen people. There is no voice like the voice of the Jews in the Psalms that so richly sounds a human heart's relationship with its creator ... complaining, crying, hoping, bartering, rejoicing, trusting, fearing, loving. And who better than Abraham to prove he was indeed made in God's image as he offered his son in sacrifice with all the trust and love, obedience and perfect submission to God's will that was Christ's en route to Golgotha.

I see no reason that Evil should enjoy its own preparation for the coming of the Anti-Christ by a Chosen People.

In every nation, in every discipline, in every tongue and faith ... gramscian marxist leninists have consistently and effectively worked to bend the truth, compartmentalize existence, increase the atomism inherent in rabid individualism and reduce human existence to the purely material, measurable "seen" world.

A way is being prepared and it's being prepared by those whose calling card is the absolute inverse of Abraham's self-sacrifice ... his knowledge of and humble submission to God in the fullness of love and trust.

I tend to think more spherically than linearly, so don't get the idea I've suddenly decided to announce the imminent arrival of the Anti-Christ ... I just think that, if anyone's as simpatico with and desirous of Satan as Abraham was with God ... it's the leninist atheists, that's all.

[Askel5]

Oh dear ... serious logorrhea ... sorry about that.

[independentmind]

LOL. I am just checking in. I will have to digest your post later.

[TightSqueeze]

I still believe we're all only human. Just as with the Christians, there will always be those Muslims who are willing to pervert their faith for geopolitical or some such purely secular gain in money, prestige or power.

Not to start a fight, but just who are the Christians you speak of who are willing to pervert their faith for geopolitical or some such purely secular gain in money, prestige or power?

[Askel5]

but just who are the Christians you speak of who are willing to pervert their faith for geopolitical or some such purely secular gain in money, prestige or power

I think certain aspects of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation and today's co-opting of the faithful by Alinsky-style organizations like the IAF or "Interfaith" (much less the feds' "faith-based funding" enticements) speak for themselves.

I'm also working on a post concerning Medjugorje which I'll add to that list.

Additionally, as a Catholic, I'd add the likes of certain clerics and so-called theologians within the Catholic Church who've bastardized their offices to promote purely secular and political objectives: like the Roosevelt-era politico Cardinal Spellman and Monsignor McHugh where human life was concerned; the eco-feminists of WomanChurch; that "rainbow" sash group of homosexuals ... anyone who refuses to leave the Catholic Church but, rather, uses the Church's infrastructure and preys on trusting parishioners who'll be cowed into conforming with this or that agenda to change the liturgy, desacralize the church, neuter the Word or promote supremely politicized "social justice" ... Chavez lettuce boycotts, Brasilian land movement, empowerment of women and such.

I guess to that list must be added the legions of former religious who -- while not abandoning the Church -- have totally perverted their faith by opting to engage in "ministries" wherein they promote New Age concepts such as the Cosmic Walk and support the marxist agenda ... whether heading in droves to Latin America or protesting outside Ma Benning's school for boys.

If I concentrate primarily on Catholics, please understand that I feel the specter of monied evangelizers preaching "prosperity" as God's ultimate blessing and eschewing all manner of suffering as some sort of curse (when, in truth, the opposite's generally the case) speaks for itself.

[TightSqueeze]

anyone who refuses to leave the Catholic Church but, rather, uses the Church's infrastructure and preys on trusting parishioners who'll be cowed into conforming with this or that agenda to change the liturgy, desacralize the church, neuter the Word or promote supremely politicized "social justice" ...

Thanks for the clarity, we are in agreement, I would include bishop spong in this group, still this group’s crime is one of heresy against the church, islam’s cirmes seem to be against all humanity and stand out accordingly.

[JMJ333]

Thanks for the flag. I will agree that atheistic marxism and radical Islam have a lot in common, but I don't think that the latter has been co-opted by the former. To say so would negate the foundations of Islam and how it spread.

The descendants of Ishamel and Esau [arabs] played a minor role in world history until the prophet Mohammed and the Qu'ran galvanized the arab world into a fighting a conquering force.

The origins of Islam stem from Judeo-Christianity but the Qu'ran and Allah have little to do with the bible or the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

The Christians and Jews, who he tried to convert, rejected his teachings and he turned to the pagans of Mecca and Medina, as well as the whole arabian peninsula. The Judeo-Christian origins of Mohammed's beliefs were tossed aside and the arabian pagan origins of Islam were emphasized.

Like I mentioned on the other thread, according to arabian paganism, there were 360 pagan gods, one for each day of the lunar year. The greatest of these gods was al-Ilahi, the war god. In order to build his new religion, Islam, on a montheistic basis, mohammed abolished the other 359 lesser gods leaving only Allah [pagan name for a monotheistic god]. But Allah always remained a war god, which is why I dissent from the premise of this thread.

al-Ilahi [moon crescent] is a war god, and god of the bow, arrow and spear. Islam is a war religion, a warrior religion and was merciless from the very beginning, with beheading, crucifixtion, and severing arms and limbs as common practice--and is still practiced.

From the beginning there has always been an eternal war between the house of peace of Islam and the house of war of the infidel non-moslem. Mohammed taught a strident ideology of war between "good and evil" i.e. Islam against the infidels. All who embraced Islam were of the house of peace, or in Arabic "Dar es Salaam" while all the infidels were grouped together in the "Dar el-Harb" or house of war which, according to mohammed, will not end until the entire world becomes moslem.

I will say that Askel has a point in that Islam, like atheistic communism, both seem locked into and fossilized in a mind-set totally contrary to the 21st century. It opposes progress and development of the renaissance and enlightenment following the medieval ages.

But Islam has always been war-like. Within a hundred years after the death of Mohammed in 732, the Arab Moslems had succeeded in brutally conquering North Africa and Spain, the entire arabian peninsula and most of the middle east--Islam didn't start to fall until the middle ages with the emergence of the renaissance. Islam basically fell into backwardness.

However, with the advent of soviet communism as well as the discovery of petroleum, Islam has once again arisen. We need to end our dependence on oil.

[Mark17]

Ref 31. See what I mean?

[Florida native]

Yes, Ishmael and Isaac are half-brothers...same father, different mothers.

And this is part of the promise to Hagar from God concerning Ishmael:

"I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count...

And he will be a wild donkey of a man,

His hand will be against everyone,

And everyone's hand will be against him;

And he will live to the east of his brothers." Genesis 16:9-12.

[Askel5]

Was that a promise or a curse?