GUNS AND THE CONSTITUTION:Telling The Right Second Amendment Story (BARF ALERT)

Findlaw.com (sic) ^ | 11/2/2001 | Akhil Reed Amar and Vikram David Amar

[Puppage]

Oh, I see.......The Bill of Rights is of the people, for the people & by the people...EXCEPT #2? Yeah, THAT makes sense. And, while I'm at it...since WHEN does a state have to GIVE ITSELF A RIGHT???

[JRandomFreeper]

As a citizen, I can own a tank, cannon, machine-gun and all of the other things you listed. I just have to get the correct tax stamp ($200) and a signature from the local sheriff. Many Class III weapons are owned by individuals. I just can't own a NEW one.

/john

[wcbtinman]

This article is full of lies and half-truths.

You should have posted this with a LIAR alert.

[Zon]

Government negates what the individual is. They claim individuals are incompetent to own guns without 20,000 laws/restrictions placed on them. Weapons don't kill people-- people kill people.

The government attempts to negate the fact that each individual must be responsible for his or her own actions. They compromise every individual's right to be an individual. An individual is responsible for his or her own acts. As individuals, most congresspersons must be held accountable for their irresponsible actions.

Just as criminals must be held accountable for abusing an individual and/or their property, politicians must be held responsible for abusing individuals. Politicians abuse individuals by passing laws that have no respect for what an individual is. The government must stop abusing the plentiful good apples in false hope of hindering the few bad apples.

This is not just a gun issue. Congress has passed laws that are abusive to individuals in just about every other area they can pass laws on. 

[da_toolman]

The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

I don't see the word limited anywhere, nor do I see anything related to "Non-Military" type weapons.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

60 Hard Truths about gun hating Liberals.

Author: Various Posted on 05/04/2001 12:04:41 PDT by moyden Improvements and additions welcome -

1. At the most basic level, the liberal is an adolescent forever in search of a world without moral consequence.

2. Freedom from moral consequence can only be secured by a collectivist, totalitarian state.

3. Liberals use moralistic tones and catch-phrases like "social justice", but their only moral is the accumulation of power

4. Liberals ideologies tend inevitably towards world-wide totalitarianism.

5. All non-sexual individual freedoms are despised by the liberal because they demand moral responsibility.

6. The fundamental power struggle of the liberal is individual v. collective. The individual must be relieved of all power in favor of the collective.

7. Individualism demands moral responsibility. Collectivism hopes to eliminate the need for moral responsibility.

8. The U.S. Constitution - specifically the individualistic Bill of Rights - is the enemy of the liberal.

9. The liberal despises the United States because it is the premier gaurantor and promoter of individualism in the world.

10. All institutions and concerns - schools, environment, courts, etc. - serve no relevant purpose other than the promotion of collectivism.

11. Abortion is necessary to gaurantee genital freedom and eliminate moral consequence.

12. The basis of psychology is the elimination of moral responsibility.

13. The liberal must create an atmosphere of crisis and fear to justify collectivist oppression.

14. Any religious person who believes or promotes moral consequence is the enemy of the liberal and must be oppressed.

15. Despite decades of spectacular failure, the liberal clings to the collectivist dream because it is far more than a theory of government. It is a religion.

17. The liberal seeks to dominate any institution which can weaken or destroy individual parental rights - public schools, child abuse agencies, pediatric associations, etc..

18. The liberal applauds the imprisoning of homeschooling parents who dare to raise their children outside the control of collectivist public schools.

19. Private ownership of guns is the single greatest symbol of individual power, and therefore despised.

20. All individual freedoms demand the responsible behaviour of the individual, and therefore demand a moral code. Liberals despise freedom because they despise morality.

21. The liberal loves Bill Clinton because of who he is, not in spite of who he is.

22. The liberal despises national sovereignty which protects individual freedoms.

23. The liberal promotes international governments (UN, EU, etc.) which seek to destroy individualism protected by sovereign states.

24. The liberal fears any hint of individualism in any part of the world, and is obsessed with the centralized control of all human activity and thought.

25. "Multi-culturalism" is the code world for a single, oppressive, collectivist culture.

26. Liberals speak often of tolerance, but only tolerate liberals.

27. The liberal seeks to criminalize any speech which promotes morality or individualism as "hate speech".

28. Environmentalists lie as a matter of course.

29. The liberal's only method of debate is to insult and discredit anyone who dares to disagree.

30. When possible, liberals opress anyone who questions their beliefs.

31. Liberals despise all innocence - especially the innocence of a child.

32. Liberals seek the sexualization of children and the normalization of pedophilia, all in the pursuit of genital freedom.

33. In the liberal mind, your freedom is their oppression.

34. Private property and individual wealth is integral to individualism, and the enemy of the liberal.

35. The liberal hates you.

36. The liberal seeks to replace a moral world view with an emotional world view.

37. The liberal typically chooses a career which produces nothing of value - lawyer, bureaucrat, "activist", etc. - and uses government to extract the wealth of others.

38. Liberal programs enrich liberals and do little to help the poor.

39. The liberal despises masculinity as a symbol of individual power.

40. Feminists groups are about lesbianism and socialism, not equal rights for women.

41. Liberals are perfectly willing to destroy you financially, remove your children, and imprison you for what you believe.

42. Liberals fear technology and change - because neither can be centrally controlled.

43. Liberals are not obsessed with sex, but with promiscuity. Promiscuity is the dominate theme of the liberal media culture.

44. Liberals despise the suburbs as a manifestation of individual prosperity, private property ownership, and the family.

45. Liberals despise marriage and family because they are institutions which frown on promiscuity.

46. Liberals are never satisfied with the power they have gained over the lives of individuals - they must control every thought and detail of human activity.

47. Liberals seek to control public schools, and force all children into them, in order to foster promiscuity and collectivist ideology in children.

48. Other diseases kill millions more, but liberals are obsessed with Aids because it is a moral consequence of promiscuity.

49. Liberals are more committed than conservatives because their politics is also their religion.

50. Liberal activities are all about ego - to demonstrate "I care more than you do" without really helping anyone.

51. Whenever a liberal expresses concern "for the children", they are using and targeting children to expand promiscuity, collectivism, and their own pocketbooks and egos.

52. Because collectivist politics is their only morality, liberals have no problem with deceit, oppression, or violence in their pursuit of collectivism.

53. Liberals are elitests who exempt themselves from the oppressive rules they impose on the general population.

54. Liberals howl if a transvestite or convicted felon is even slightly offended, but openly bash Christians.

55. Liberals dream of a return to a centralized, 1940's urban environment. We all ride the bus from a small, dirty, big city apartment to an 8-5 union job.

56. Liberals believe that wealth is static - anyone who makes money must be stealing it from someone else.

57. Liberals claim to be against violence, but makes excuses for liberals like Castro who torture political dissidents.

58. Liberals have enormous compassion for criminal predators, but little for the victims.

59. In the liberal world, all problems stem from individualism, and all solutions are collective.

60. Liberals believe that passing religious values to children is a form of child abuse. Let's review some leftist definitions: x42="Honest Man" Appeasing those who have declared themselves your mortal enemies="Peace Process" Supplying secret military technology to Red China="Constructive Engagement" Tyranny="Living Constitution" Slut="Liberated Woman" Acting like a slut="infatuated" Man="Rapist" Rape="Personal Matter" Using an intern like a whore="counseling" Perjury="Personal Matter" Obstruction of Justice="Full Cooperation" Navy EP-3 Crew="Spies" .01 C increase in global mean temperature="Environmental Catastrophe" Boys and girls are different="News" Ignorant journalist's opinion="News story" Satan's minion="Attorney" Seems as though they can't stand to hear the truth.

[epow]

Akhil graduated from Yale College and Yale Law School, clerked for then-judge Stephen Breyer, and teaches at Yale Law School. Vikram graduated from U.C. Berkeley and Yale Law School, clerked for Judge William Norris and Justice Harry Blackmun,

I think that about says it all.

This is just more PC crap from the collectivist/fascist academic community. The 5th circuit's Emerson decision has really got them shaking in their pink boots.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Last updated 1.15.2001

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58 Posted on 03/05/2001 13:42:50 PST by George Smiley (george.smiley@lycos.com)

[Green Knight]

I just love it how these people seek to "divine" the intent that the framers had when they wrote the Bill of Rights. If they gave a damn about what the framers had in mind then they'd go back and READ what they themselves had to say about the Bill of Rights. Of course, they don't even MENTION what the framers said about the Amendments they themselves wrote, because it would prove indisputably that their interpretation of the framers intent is 100% WRONG! The 2nd Amendment doesn't GIVE people the right to bear arms so they can serve in the militia. This is what it does:

1) It acknowledges that people have a right to bear arms. Let me say that, again. ACKNOWLEDGES. It's assumed that people have a right to bear arms. It doesn't give the right.

2) It then says that an armed populace is important to the defense of the nation.

3) It then stats that, because an armed populace is important to the defense of the nation, it explicitly prevents congress from doing anything that interferes with the citizens' right to bear arms.

It doesn't grant people the right to bear arms to serve in a militia. It acknowledges that people have the right to bear arms, and says that as a byproduct of that, people will be able to form a militia and defend the nation. Therefore Congress shouldn't do anything to prevent the citizenry from arming themselves.

[prambo]

The BOR is a list of inalienable rights that the govt is to leave alone, not "granted" by the govt. This continuous litany of "granted rights" is as bogus as the "we are a democracy" rubbish.

That, combined with the fact that "the people" are the same group in all of the BOR and...

Viola!!!!

Emerson is moot - the fedgov has no jurisdiction.

Period. Fini. End of story, etc.

prambo

[Sloth]

Why does the ammendment bring up the militia? If the framers wanted an unlimited individual right to bear arms why did they include that at all?

Probably to try to prevent the kind of confusion (deception) that we are dealing with today. Therefore, the amendment specifically states that private weapon ownership is NECESSARY to preserve freedom. They understood that in time, the U.S. government could become as oppressive as Britain was then.

Should there be an unlimited right to bear arms or are some restrictions ok? And where to you draw the line?

It should certainly include all the weapons a single individual could make use of in carrying out a military operation. Do I think the Amendment protects the ownership of something like nuclear weapons? No, because the nature of such a weapon means that in the hands of a private individual it is more likely to be used against the cause of freedom than to protect it.

If you believe that some reasonable regulation is ok, do you think it's a mistake for the NRA to take a Zero-regulation stance instead of working for a compromise?

I wish they would take a hardcore zero-regulation stance. Compromise is always bad when we're talking about Constitutional rights.

[Dan from Michigan]

Why does the ammendment bring up the militia? If the framers wanted an unlimited individual right to bear arms why did they include that at all?

I look at Federalist 46. According to James Madison, the 'militia' is the common people. I don't use the term 'militia' much because of what people nowadays think of with the militia, but that's what the militia was intended to be. US CODE seconds what Madison said.

Should there be an unlimited right to bear arms or are some restrictions ok? And where to you draw the line?

My opinion - All but felons. Felons shouldn't be able to vote either.

How do you even define "arms"? Certainly, weapons exist now that the framers couldn't even imagine.

That can be applied to the 1st amendment as well. TV? Internet? Radio? Can you own a cannon.... a tank? Only handheld? How about hand-held rocket launchers, machine guns, grenade launchers?

They had cannons back then. I look at what could be "beared". I can't bear a tank. I have no problem with machine guns, or even grenade launchers. Rocket launchers I'm a little nervous on, but still, if the person hasn't committed a violent felon, what threat does a law abiding citizen with even a rocket launcher poses to society? I wouldn't kill people with one.

If you believe that some reasonable regulation is ok, do you think it's a mistake for the NRA to take a Zero-regulation stance instead of working for a compromise?

The NRA has compromised. Many times. Sometimes too much so(I still like them anyway though as they are the best we got). The other side doesn't compromise. I look at it as a matter of trust more than anything else. If you don't trust me with a firearm, why should I trust you?

[Fixit]

I'm not much for reinventing the wheel here so I'll just give quick answers and provide what I think makes interesting reading.

Why does the ammendment bring up the militia? If the framers wanted an unlimited individual right to bear arms why did they include that at all?

This simply a justification preceding the operative clause. It merely gives the reason for the right, it does not condition it. Such clauses are common in many states' constitutions. See Eugene Volokh's The Commonplace Second Amendment.

Should there be an unlimited right to bear arms or are some restrictions ok? And where to you draw the line?How do you even define "arms"? Certainly, weapons exist now that the framers couldn't even imagine. Can you own a cannon.... a tank? Only handheld? How about hand-held rocket launchers, machine guns, grenade launchers?

The framer's imagined free people owning everything up to an including private ships of war and all the weapons that would entail. Further, restrictive laws on weapons of all kinds serve only to leave people defenseless at the hands of prior restraint. A free society should punish misuse, not posession and ownership. Further, manufacture of weapons of all sorts, up to and including the most powerful things in our arsenal, is conducted by private companies. They certainly are allowed to posess these weapons, and on some level each is posessed at some time by non-governmental individuals.

If you believe that some reasonable regulation is ok, do you think it's a mistake for the NRA to take a Zero-regulation stance instead of working for a compromise?

Sadly the NRA does not now, nor have they for years taken a Zero-regulation stance. The NRA deals in "political realities" and "the lesser of two evils" and "expediency and safety."

[x]

This is a pretty good example of how rights are lost. Note the final use of Blacks and women as battering rams against what remains of the old structure. I would have thought both groups would have been glad to have the right to bear arms in self-defense. Notice too the slight of hand that procedes from making the right to keep and bear arms a "collective" right exercisable by the militia, or all men of a given age, to the confiscation of arms in the name of the government since it is a "collective right". The idea that the Minutemen of Lexington and Concord took up arms against what they took to be an oppressive government somehow escapes the Amars, who don't seem to concede the possiblity that government could ever become oppressive or that an armed citizenry might be able to act against such a tyranny.

Here is Blackstone in 1765:

The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute I W. & M. st. 2. c. 2. and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.

This does not appear to suggest that gun ownership is to be reserved to an organized militia. Here is St. George Tucker's 1803 Commentary on Blackstone:

This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction. In England, the people have been disarmed, generally, under the specious pretext of preserving the game: a never failing lure to bring over the landed aristocracy to support any measure, under that mask, though calculated for very different purposes. True it is, their bill of rights seems at first view to counteract this policy: but the right of bearing arms is confined to protestants, and the words suitable to their condition and degree, have been interpreted to authorise the prohibition of keeping a gun or other engine for the destruction of game, to any farmer, or inferior tradesman, or other person not qualified to kill game. So that not one man in five hundred can keep a gun in his house without being subject to a penalty.

Here is Elbridge Gerry in the ratification debates for the Second Amendment:

What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Now, it must be evident, that, under this provision, together with their other powers, Congress could take such measures with respect to a militia, as to make a standing army necessary. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins. This was actually done by Great Britain at the commencement of the late revolution. They used every means in their power to prevent the establishment of an effective militia to the eastward. The Assembly of Massachusetts, seeing the rapid progress that administration were making to divest them of their inherent privileges, endeavored to counteract them by the organization of the militia; but they were always defeated by the influence of the Crown.

The militia was intended as an alternative to oppressive standing armies, not simply as another government institution.

You can find out more at the "Founder's Constitution" site, the Liberty Library site, and, if you know what you are looking for, at the Century of Lawmaking site. There is also an interesting article here, which takes issue at least in part with the Amars, arguing that the individual vs. collective right scheme is flawed, since the amendment represented a compromise.