Why torture is sometimes good

National review Online ^ | Oct 12, 2001 | Jonah Goldberg

[Tax Government]

Nothing in this article comes remotely close to justifying deliberate torture. Nothing that happened in the last 5 weeks justifies it either. We have truth serum, which creates a state of mind in which individuals beecome candid; I suggest we use that in cases where national security and lives are at stake. Torture is pure, repugnant nonsense.

[wretchard]

Torture is never good, but is sometimes necessary. Killing and maiming people is never glorious, even when it is done to protect your country. But there are times when it must be done.

I like the National Review, but this writer knows nothing about war or participating in it. It makes you dirty, but you go on because you must. In quieter moments, you ask for God's pardon and earnestly hope that your deeds will make it unnecessary for your son or daughter to do the same.

[spycatcher]

With 20/20 hindsight, if Mohammed Atta were in custody on Sept 10th and we knew an even was planned for the 11th we would be irresponsible not to "torture" him for info

Cops often need to inflict some pain to get criminals to comply with orders, drop a weapon, etc. Happens all the time. Interrogators regularly inflict a small amount of psychological pressure with long hours, lack of sleep, bright lights, etc. The only question is the limits.

In this case we need to review those limits, just like we did the stupid limits on assasination. I don't think anyone is talking about boiling their skin off and plucking out eyeballs and fingernails. But I for one am glad the FBI is looking at our methods for ways around the law. Modern non-lethal non-harmful technology could be employed in creative ways I'm sure.

That would be just like us, humanitarian torture -- followed by food and bomb drops.

[packrat01]

I read the whole thing, and clicked through to Restoring the "Hidden Law"

Author states:

A black cop can administer justice in a black neighborhood without making the "victim" a racial martyr or flunky to be exploited by the likes of Al Sharpton.

Not true. Black cops are labeled Uncle Toms, and Sharpie exploits even them.

He might be right that we should torture the guilty; but he gives no support other than emotional.

[spycatcher]

His non-emotional logic is here:

"...Israel's Supreme Court grants an exception, the so-called "ticking bomb" excuse. If Israeli authorities are positive there's a bomb about to go off somewhere which will kill untold numbers of innocents, they can use "physical pressure" — or some other sanitized euphemism for torture — on someone in their custody, if he has information about how to prevent it.

Imagine if the FBI announced that we were in a similar position on September 10, but we declined to whack the guy around "because torture is always wrong." Six thousand people die; the country loses billions of dollars which could have been spent more productively. Hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs, and hundreds of millions live in fear."

So it's simply a matter of being a lesser evil, just like assassinating terrorists. But why assasinate or execute someone when they have critical info that can save countless lives? What if that info concerns a nuclear or smallpox weapon in an unknown building in NYC? The guy is sitting there smiling and laughing about the coming annihilation of millions of people. At that point there should be no hesitation. Legal issues aside, all bets are off in a chemical/biological/nuclear war scenario.

[wretchard]

You don't know how desperately I want to agree with you. Yet I'm sure you know that necessity creates its own rules. The wolf chews off his leg to escape the trap; the survivors of an airplane crash eat the corpses of their fellow passengers to survive.

Torture is ALWAYS morally indefensible. You can never claim it is good. Yet there will be situations in which great agony will be inflicted either way, by action or inaction. Your freedom will be as real as the couple who chose to jump from the World Trade Center, rather than burn to death. In a way, we all stand condemned on this planet. Our only hope is the existence of a merciful God who will understand and forgive what we cannot.

[spycatcher]

I agree that it may lead down a slippery slope, but we may also walk off a cliff if we don't do it. Maybe we should put procedures in place for investigators to obtain federal warrants for extracting information from a person in certain specific cases - like WMD threats or ticking bombs. I don't think federal judges would ever stoop to approving warrants for torturing kids who steal car stereos.

Wait, maybe we should bring paddling back for the kids while we're at it. Darn, it causes pain so I guess not.

[Ratatoskr]

Two people had to hold me back from beating the snot out of him.

Speaking of keyboard warriors. Anybody smell bullshit?

[spycatcher]

Excellent post and analogy. We're like an animal fighting for our survival, and may need to bite off a finger to save our body. The "finger" in this case may even grow back over time. That's what is so great about our Constitution.

[Fredgoblu]

Torture doesn't have to be physical to be effective.

Heck, some of these guys have been incarcerated for 5 weeks now. That's time enough to hear 840 hours worth of "God Bless America." And just for fun, when their beady eyes get droopy, the volume should go up...not gradually, of course...just some instantaneous 200 decibel outbursts to keep them on edge, and keep them from sleeping.

I'm sorry, but we need to get inside the heads of these terrorists, for the safety of the entire country. The FBI can't be tiptoeing around worrying that the ACLU is going to file suit against them. They've got a job to do.

[glockmeister40]

I don't think it would be torture to put these folks in a room full of swine, pork shops and ribs and let them sit there for a while.

[spycatcher]

I smell BS. Mr one_particular_harbour suggests we would all be afraid of doing the "dirty work" (Oh yeah, right, if lined up around the block means afraid) and that it would stain our reputation and inflame others. Yet he of course wants to beat the crap out of someone for daring to practice freedom of speech! Do we hand out awards here for most hypocritical post?

Unfortunately the world, like all liberals, despises and resents America no matter how much we feed the world and coddle our criminals. And Israel is hated but respected by the Arabs for their survival instinct. If they didn't play hardball they wouldn't exist. At least Israel doesn't chop off hands and beat the hell out of people for entertainment like some Arab countries.

[Ratatoskr]

If you check, you'll find I don't hide behind anonymity - so why lie?

For the all the reasons people lie, anonymous or not.

[Skooz]

One of the reasons I am, and always have been, so proud to be an American is the fact that we are indeed different from any other nation. We DO NOT use torture as a means to extract information and we treat POWs well and with dignity. We are better than that.

Also, torture has many times proven to be a less than reliable means of obtaining information. By the time information has been extracted, it is usually out of date and of little value. Also, after enough torture, most victims will say anything to make it stop--whether or not they have knowledge of any value. Thus, the results are often misleading and a waste of time.

From what I understand, we have, over time, developed more effective ways of getting information from POWs, etc. than torture.