Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
I asked first and I particularly would like for all those who have been speaking of "worshipping" this or that to answer because I suspect they cannot provide a satisfactory answer. No, not WARSHIP.
Pegleg: For starters you can share with us what you base your opinion on.
I base my opinion on the numerous missionaries to South America and Italy that have come through my church and related what they have seen first-hand. I base my opinion on former RC’s and their experiences and the experiences that they say they are still having with their RC family members.
ksen: I hope I am wrong, but the actions that most exhibit towards Mary seem most worshipful. I am talking about the everyday Catholic
Pegleg: Sounds like a hasty generalization to me. How many everyday Catholic’s do you know?
See my answer above. Let’s see kissing the feet of a statue, bowing down, praying to, waving incense before likenesses of Mary. Doesn’t sound like worship to me.
ksen: I wouldn't consider our RC friends on this thread as being everyday RC's. They seem to be a cut above most RC's in their knowledge of their religion.
Pegleg: How do you know this? What makes you think Catholics who don’t post here or for that matter don’t even surf the net, would be less knowledgeable of the faith than Catholics who do post here?
What makes you think they are?
Pegleg: Your responses indicate you know very little about Catholics. Especially, to use your term, everyday Catholics.
I think I know more about them now then I did before I came on this thread. I have much more respect for the individual RC than I had before my time here, for that I am quite thankful. I said a number of times in my responses to you that “I think” and “it seems” not that these things are definitely true. Am I not allowed to have an opinion and to express it? How will I get my opinions “corrected” if I do not express them? Would you rather I go about life thinking erroneous things about the RC laity? Like I said, I am open to being shown that I am wrong.
-ksen
Whew! Thank you. ;^)
-ksen
Now what could be wrong with praying this to Mary? The bible never specifically says not to does it?
I thought it was a good question. So I got out Webster, (he expresses himself better then I do:)
1 Worship n worthiness, repute, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, 2. reverence offered a divine bieng or supernatural power; also an act of expressing such reverence 3. a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual 4. extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem (--of the dollar)
2 worship vb 1. to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2. to reard with great, even extravagant respect, honor or devotion to preform or take part in worship or act of worship syn see REVERE worshiper n
worshipful adj. 1. definition for British notable /na 2. giving worship or veneration
The parts I bolded is IMO what the catholics do to Mary. Now in your heart you may not see it that way, but actions speak louder then words. Actions influence children greatly. Actions confuse people who don't study as some of you on this thread seem to do.
Becky
god, n, 1. (this was the definition for God) 2. a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require man's worship, specif : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality 3. a person or thing of supreme value 4. a powerful ruler
The one I bolded seems to fit how Mary is view. Don't get me wrong we all have things that could fit this difinition (horses,I admit, I have to work on that:), the problem I see with some catholics is the denial of this view. When you deny it, you won't work on correcting the attitude, you may not even ever ask for forgiveness of such an attitude, that is sin:(
Becky
And like all the rest of the NCs here, this is an entirely superficial judgment. Even if some missionary from some spooky country told you what the poor demented Catholics were doing.
You simply can not judge that the actions taken are "worship" or, more seriously, that the adoration shown means that we regard Mary as a goddess, as a divine being. You can only judge the outside actions, and you all do a poor job of it when you do.
Tomorrow is Good Friday, and throughout Christendom Catholics will meet for solemn services where they will venerate (kiss) a cross. Using the superficial methods of the NCs, it is quite obvious that Catholics regard a bit of wood as a god, as their actions before it, incensing, kneeling, kissing, etc. all seem to be acts of worship dedicated to a divine being.
So what say ye? Is it massive idolatry? Or is there perhaps a reasonable internal explanation, or symbolism, to the actions? Or do you just judge based on externals?
SD
Now what could be wrong with praying this to Mary? The bible never specifically says not to does it?
Wade through all the rest of your objections about lofty language about Mary, and you eventually strike gold. You just can't handle the orthodox position about Theotokos. If you accepted this teaching, the others might not seem so scandalous. But since you can not even affirm the basic role of Mary in Salvation, you are simply lost.
When did Jesus become God again?
SD
And here's the gist of the dispute. To the Chick types and to our honorable NCs, this paragraph describes worship. To a Catholic it simply does not. It is a sad case where those with only a hammer view everything as a nail.
SD
How does the actions of these people not fit the difinition I gave, that said to regard with great, even extravagant respect, honor, or devtion. Or does the RC have their own dictionary that says something different.
As I said, to you these actions speak loudly of worship to the rest of the world, and Jesus told us to be concerned with how the world views us. We are to be good witnesses for him. Rather you believe it is worship or not catholic rituals are misleading to us poor shallow NC's and I believe God would want you to be concerned about that.
Becky
You’re still speaking in general terms here. So what you are telling me is you are basing your opinion on non Catholic perceptions.
See my answer above. Let’s see kissing the feet of a statue, bowing down, praying to, waving incense before likenesses of Mary. Doesn’t sound like worship to me.
You still didn’t answer my question. How many everyday Catholic’s do you know? And to expand the point, besides this forum, how many do you have conversations with?
What makes you think they are?
Again, you didn’t answer my question.
I think I know more about them now then I did before I came on this thread. I have much more respect for the individual RC than I had before my time here, for that I am quite thankful.
Communication is a wonderful thing isn’t it?
I said a number of times in my responses to you that “I think” and “it seems” not that these things are definitely true.
I realize that. That’s why I’m asking you to be more specific. My view is you are passing judgement on a large number of Catholics that you have no direct experience with.
Am I not allowed to have an opinion and to express it? How will I get my opinions “corrected” if I do not express them?
Opinions are fine. All I’m asking you is to back them up with some facts.
Would you rather I go about life thinking erroneous things about the RC laity? Like I said, I am open to being shown that I am wrong.
Wonderful. Just by the few posts we have had, you responded to me that you don’t believe I worship Mary. And if I’m reading you correctly, you don’t think other Catholics on this thread do either. However you think other Catholics do because you think Catholics on these threads are not average Catholics. The point I am trying to make is the Catholics on this thread represent a tiny fraction of the Catholic population. I am confident your perceptions would change if you got to know more of us.
As I said before to you,
Correction of placement of comma. Sorry.
Becky
Becky
Well Robby. If you could stop feeling persecuted for the couple of minutes it would take to go back and observe how much I've actually contributed to this conversation about Mary, whether positively or negatively, you could see that I'm probably not tortured at all. (But please, stop, I can't take it anymore.....heavy breathing......excruciating pain.......panting.....desperate for help)
I thought it was a good question too. So I got out the Catechism.
266. "'Now this is the Catholic faith: We WORSHIP one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal' (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16)."
SD: And here's the gist of the dispute. To the Chick types and to our honorable NCs, this paragraph describes worship. To a Catholic it simply does not. It is a sad case where those with only a hammer view everything as a nail.
So if a bunch of Buddhists were doing this to a statue of Buddha would you consider it worship? If so, why?
Whenever we NC’s start showing you the actions of those in your church your side starts throwing out Jack Chick’s name like that is supposed to embarrass us or get us to be quiet. Sorry, it won’t work.
-ksen
It does fit that definition. What does not fit is your insistence that this respecting and honoring means that we must regard Mary as a divine being. This simply isn't so.
We can honor the memory of people in many ways and there are many people both religious and in the secular world that we honor and venerate. This doesn't mean that we "worship" them, that is that we regard them as gods, that we give to them the glory only due to God.
As I said to you before, these actions speak loudly of worship to the rest of the world, and Jesus told us to be concerned with how the world views us. We are to be good witnesses for him. Rather you believe it is worship or not catholic rituals are misleading to us poor shallow NC's and I believe God would want you to be concerned about that.
Jesus also told us nobody lights a lamp and then hides it under a bushel basket. We do not celebrate Mary or the other saints to the detriment of God, but to show his greatest works. We are not ashamed!
Maybe a cultural ignorant might witness a Baptism someday and think you are trying to drown somebody. Should we not do that cause Jesus clearly teaches that murder is wrong?
SD
I wonder if I were to talk with them if I would come away with a different perception than you.
Becky
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