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The question America dares not ask: What role do the Saudis play?
MAIL ON SUNDAY | September 23, 2001 | Stephen Schwartz

Posted on 09/23/2001 11:38:03 PM PDT by Wallaby

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To: ThePythonicCow
If that is the case then that shows a deep ignorance of the Muslim mind set. Blood is thicker than water, you can hear it in their demands for "proof", their reticence to mouth all but the most quickly uttered, "this is a tragedy", and weakly profferd condemnation, in regards to the events in NYC and DC, and their plea for understanding of why America is hated, and why muslims don't deserve to be held in suspicion or targeted for retribution.

In watching these worms squirm, the horror that sould hit all citizens that love their country, is the governments acceptance and insistance that people that do not love this country, some who would even harm this country, be welcomed into this country to set up a miniature homeland, and the insanity of them in forcing this presence, and demand of acceptance and tolerance, upon natural born citizens, whose own good natural instincts tell them that this is inherently dangerous and unacceptable.

21 posted on 09/24/2001 7:33:33 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: ThePythonicCow
If that is the case then that shows a deep ignorance of the Muslim mind set. Blood is thicker than water, you can hear it in their demands for "proof", their reticence to mouth all but the most quickly uttered, "this is a tragedy", and weakly profferd condemnation, in regards to the events in NYC and DC, and their plea for understanding of why America is hated, and why muslims don't deserve to be held in suspicion or targeted for retribution.

In watching these worms squirm, the horror that sould hit all citizens that love their country, is the governments acceptance and insistance that people that do not love this country, some who would even harm this country, be welcomed into this country to set up a miniature homeland, and the insanity of them in forcing this presence, and demand of acceptance and tolerance, upon natural born citizens, whose own good natural instincts tell them that this is inherently dangerous and unacceptable.

22 posted on 09/24/2001 7:33:40 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Clinton's a rapist
I notice that there is a significant drumbeat going on to somehow pin this on the Saudis, yet I can't really make sense of what it is they're supposed to be guilty of.

I have collected a number of articles that address this very question:

On the Complicity of Mainstream Islamic Society

23 posted on 09/24/2001 7:38:48 AM PDT by SlickWillard
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To: Texasforever
For most of the 20th century, the Shi'ites were considered the "moderates" and the Sunnis the radicals. To the point that at least one Arab country imported Shi'ites to "calm down" the restive Sunni population!
24 posted on 09/24/2001 10:47:16 AM PDT by a history buff
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To: Clinton's a rapist
I notice that there is a significant drumbeat going on to somehow pin this on the Saudis, yet I can't really make sense of what it is they're supposed to be guilty of. Saudi Arabia has a government which, while it may not be our cup of tea, isn't made up of total whackos, unlike several that we might mention.

In my book, a country that executes Christians for practicing their faith amongst themselves, is pretty close to totally whacko. Saudi Arabia is a feudal nation without even a magna carta. But lots of oil.

25 posted on 09/24/2001 10:49:16 AM PDT by a history buff
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

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To: Samaritan, a history buff
Re post #26:
> Christians who evangelize are deported, not executed.

See:


29 posted on 09/24/2001 2:38:45 PM PDT by Wallaby
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To: Samaritan
Not for commercial use. Solely to be used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion.

Taliban religious doctrine inspired by Saudi Wahhabism
EZZEDINE SAID
Agence France Presse
September 24, 2001 Monday 11:36 AM Eastern Time

DUBAI, Sept 24
Wahhabism, the creed of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban and Osama bin Laden, is a puritanical form of Islam that emerged in the Arabian peninsula and has spread to central Asia with Saudi Arabia's oil money.


"The networks of Taliban schools were developed in Pakistan and mostly financed by Saudi Arabia, which also provided teachers and offered scholarships to youngsters. So we had a 'wahhabisation' of the Taliban movement, which was originally not Wahhabi."
The fundamental sect is named after its founder Mohammad Bin Abdul Wahhab (1703-92), a reformist Sunni thinker who preached an austere doctrine of strict observance of the religious duties of Islam.

His purist interpretation was taken up in 1745 by Mohammad ibn Saud, the founder of the Saud dynasty which controls modern Saudi Arabia. Wahhab declared all those who disagreed heretics and used force to impose the doctrine.

Today his descendants known as the ash-Shaykh family still control the religious institutions of Saudi Arabia in a cooperative and consensual relationship with the royal family.

Olivier Roy, a specialist in political Islam at France's Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, explains that the influence of Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism on the Taliban began in the 1980s.

"The networks of Taliban schools were developed in Pakistan and mostly financed by Saudi Arabia, which also provided teachers and offered scholarships to youngsters. So we had a 'wahhabisation' of the Taliban movement, which was originally not Wahhabi," Roy said.

The Taliban, in fact, belonged to a traditional movement in the Indian sub-continent called the Deobandist school, "who never waged war on images or statues," Roy said in reference to the Taliban's destruction of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan's Bamiyan province in March.

The Taliban's interpretation of Wahhabism is far stricter than that practised in Saudi Arabia today. The militia demands that women be completely covered in public, bans music, television and cinema, and exacts punishments such as execution, stoning, amputation and flogging for moral offences.

Paradoxically, when the Soviet Union, the common enemy of the United States and the Taliban, left Afghanistan in the late 1980s, it was the resources and ideology exported from Saudi Arabia and the training and money from the United States that led to the establishment of the hardline regime violently hostile to US interests.

Afghanistan has since 1994 been home to Saudi-born bin Laden, prime suspect in the September 11 terror attacks in the United States that left thousands dead.

Bin Laden's presence has only increased the isolation of Afghanistan and today Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the only countries to recognise the Taliban.

The United Arab Emirates snapped diplomatic relations on Saturday after the regime in Kabul refused to hand over bin Laden.

Riyadh downgraded ties with Kabul to charge d'affaires level in 1998 in a similar protest.

In September 1999, the parliament of the Russian republic of Dagestan outlawed any Wahhabi organisation, accusing followers of organising two armed uprisings in an effort to establish an Islamic republic independent of Moscow.

And in April, the pro-Russian Chechen mufti, Akhmad Shamaiev, accused Saudi Arabia of being behind the development of Wahhabism in Chechnya and the Caucasus region through "young men" who had completed further education in the oil-rich kingdom.

The only other Wahhabi state is Qatar, but the doctrine is not enforced as strictly.


30 posted on 09/24/2001 3:27:40 PM PDT by Wallaby
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To: Samaritan
"My book" is based on press reports AP, and the like, and amnesty international reports.
32 posted on 09/24/2001 10:03:02 PM PDT by a history buff
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To: aristeides
Wahhabism exists and is the religious sub group dominant in Saudi Arabia. It is a culturally conservative version of Sunni Islam. But the inference from that to all Islamic fundamentalism being Wahhabism is false. It would be like saying the age of religious wars was all the fault of those darn Presbyterians.

A number of the bombers of Israel and elsewhere aren't even primarily motivated by Islamic fundamentalism, though the most extreme groups are, and the guys who hit us were. Islamic fundamentalism is not reducable to Wahhabism, though. It is a more varied and a more recent thing, mostly a phenomenon of this century. Islamic revival was the early and hopeful term, and Islamic radicalism the more recent one - fundamentalism would cover all of them.

The attractions of the notion that Islam is sound only in the institutions of the first 300 years are partly theological but mostly political. In the first sense, it goes back to a time before division by controversy, much as some Protestant groups define doctrine by the Nicene creed, to antedate east-west splits, etc. But there was another political attraction of the idea at the time and place of its adoption. The Turks hadn't shown up yet, and Arabs were still in charge.

The Turks weren't resisted in the 19th and early 20th century because they were supposedly tolerant. The secularized attitude of modern Turkey dates only to 1920, and Attaturk's language based nationalist revolution after the defeat of WW I. Turkish rule was resisted by the Arabs out of language nationalism - because they spoke Turkish rather than Arabic - and because they were distant and rather harsh despots ruling the whole Middle East from Istanbul. From the time of the French revolution, nationalism (defined by language grouping) has been an important political force in the Arab world.

So a puritan nationalist break-away movement in the deserts of Arabia, and the distant fertile coast of Yemen shielded by those deserts, arose naturally. They denied Islamic legitimacy to their Turkish rulers by "disqualifying" every political event in Islamic history after the Turks arrived in serious force. They could claim that Islam had originated among Arabs, not steppe nomad Turks from central Asia, who were still barbarians then.

But they did not get very far in the 19th century, because the Turks were much stronger, and were at the time continually supported by the policy of the British, who propped up the Ottoman Empire as a means of containing Russia. Although the British eased this policy to secure Egypt for themselves, under a puppet Arab government.

The main event of the early 20th century for the whole region was the explusion of the Turks by the Allied powers, supported by a nationalist rising by all the Arabs. Afterwards, the power vaccum left by the withdrawl of the Turks was filled by Arab kings of the House of Faisal, originally placed on their thrones to rule over divisions on the map carved out by European diplomats, by the British foreign office.

One of these was on the throne of Arabia. It was this Faisal king that the House of Saud overthrew between the two world wars, to create the present kingdom of Saudi Arabia. This success coincided with significant oil discoveries in the area, which the Saudis made available from development by western companies, from both the UK and the US.

This hardly qualifies as some inspiration to later Islamic fundamentalists. Islamic fundamentalists seek the overthrow of the Saudi government as corrupt lackies of the west - for selling us oil instead of embargoing it, for living luxuriously, for cooperating with us militarily, for letting our troops into the country, etc.

The present kings of the House of Saud are committed to a culturally conservative domestic policy. There are obvious reasons for this. They are traditional kings. Modern ideologies imported from the west tend to have a dim view of the legitimacy of kings who reign without constitutions or parliaments. Traditional culture sees them as a matter of course. When the Shah of Iran engaged in a "revolution from above" in favor of what he understood to be modernism and center-left pseudo-socialism, he soon found himself without a constituency. And then without a country. People noticed.

None of which makes the cultural conservatism of the Saudis into bomb throwing. Nor makes an 18th century sect into all of modern Islamic fundamentalism. The Iranians were not more moderate than the Saudis in 1979, as everyone knows; there is nothing magically moderate about Shiite rather than Sunni Islam. (Perhaps the reverse, in fact). The Party of God (Hezbollah) are certainly bombers, and they are certainly not Sunni Wahhabis. There are many other Islamicist parties and groups in other countries, that are Sunni. But they aren't Wahhabis either - Islamic Brotherhood, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, yada yada.

What I think happened here is the article writer asked a theologian to explain something to him about fundamentalist Islam, and the person who wrote the article did not understand the nuances of what he was told. Both the bombers and the Wahhabis can properly be called "fundamentalist", in the sense of the way they read the Koran and decide to accept stories about the prophet as bonafide, etc. Both are culturally conservative. There the equivalence ends. There are plenty of nasties who aren't Wahhabis, and plenty of Wahhabis who aren't nasty. Including the government of Saudi Arabia.

33 posted on 09/25/2001 4:06:11 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: MissAmericanPie
Do you understand why, after all that has happened, there are any Islamists illegally in the USA?

Every single Middle Eastern national without a valid visa should already be incarcerated, either awaiting trial or on a (very) slow boat home. I cannot even conceive why this has not happened.

The green card holders and J-1/H-1 holders raise more complicated issues-but the illegals are simple, right?

Do you get it?

34 posted on 09/25/2001 4:34:08 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: Jim Noble
What I get is that legitimate citizens have paid a great deal of money to the government to protect our borders, and do a through check of people wanting to come into this country and they have failed us.

The corrupt desire of politicans to stuff ballot boxes has placed us in grave danger. I get that.

35 posted on 09/25/2001 6:17:38 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: Texasforever
The Wahabbis are the Saudi variety of the Sunni Muslim religion. The authors description of the fundementalist nature of the Wahabbi sect is accurate.

Bin Laden's argument with the Saudi Royal family is that they do not adhere to the strict behaviour codes of the Wahabbi variety of Islam. They drink, they are sexually indulgent, they are corrupt. And they allow 10,000 American troops to stay on the Holy Ground of Saudi Arabia, corrupting the place, in his eyes.

I'm not sure that the author's contention that bin Laden wants to rule Saudi Arabia is correct. But he definitely wants to see the fall of the current Saudi regime and its replacement by people who will more purely follow the Wahabbi variety of Islam.

36 posted on 09/28/2001 8:34:05 AM PDT by Magician
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