Pope in dramatic appeal to avert war

Yahoo News (Reuters) ^ | 9-23-01 | Philip Pullella

[wideawake]

I think that the Pope is mealy-mouthed.

I think your opinion here is incorrect and uncharitable - but it is an opinion you are certainly entitled to.

He has no real unction from God.

Here you're just trying to pass off your speculation as fact - you don't speak authoritatively for God.

More to the point, doc, you claim to have read my post #185 - and yet you ignore its content.

What the Pope actually said - that the US and President Bush have a God-given right to pursue justice by whatever means we deem appropriate - and what you and Yahoo News are dishonestly accusing him of saying are two different things. I know that you have your pet theological hypotheses about the Catholic faith, etc., etc.

However to twist what someone actually said in such a devious way is beneath a Christian. The Pope endorsed the US reaction to the mass murder at the WTC and yet you accuse him of the opposite based on one paraphrased sentence from a secular news outlet which is famous for its hippy-style peacenik spinning.

I know you're better than that, doc. And it doesn't help to use religion to try and split Americans when we should be standing in solidarity. I'm not using the National Council of Churches version of Protestantism as a stick to beat you with in this critical hour. I'd appreciate it if you didn't use the Yahoo News version of Catholicism as a weapon against me.

[wideawake]

Thanks for bashing your fellow Americans, oh ironically-monikered GWB.

It's definitely smart to attack one another when we're facing a common enemy.

[conservonator]

I do not specialize in Rome-bashing on this forum, ...

hahahahahahaha,</font size></font color> sniff, hahahahahahahah,</font size></font color> cough, hahahahahahahah.,</font size></font color> Damn, last time I laughed this hard someone was waging a finger in my face telling me he didn't have sexual relations with someone named Monica.

[sinkspur]

That's more like one billion baptized by their parents as infants but only a few hundred million who are faithful.

Are there even one hundred million who follow your droll Calvinist doctrine?

And how many of those are faithful?

_doc is still using quotations from Saturday to bash the Pope over this stance on U.S. aggression.

Surely you, much more reasonable in tone and manner and understanding, have read his subsequent statements and realize that he has given the U.S. the green light to proceed militarily.

THAT'S the point of this thread, not another roll-in-the-mud between Catholics and others.

[CCWoody]

The Pope, who aides say is losing sleep over the possibility of war, celebrated a mass that began with a stiff wind blowing in from Siberia over the flat steppes and ended in sunshine.

What a wus! I might lose sleep if I didn't think we were going to have war. To even suggest that we try and work this out shows just how "out of touch" with reality the pope really is.

[the_doc]

Talk to me about your understanding of spirituality when you lead one billion faithful.

Actually, the Lord Jesus was never impressed with numbers in the way you are. So, neither am I.

Besides, the Lord also taught that most professing believers are going to hell. It's called the wide-doorway deception.

It's a antichristian deception, sinkspur. But you'd need to become a Calvinist to understand that very well, I'm afraid.

[the_doc]

I know you're better than that, doc. And it doesn't help to use religion to try and split Americans when we should be standing in solidarity. I'm not using the National Council of Churches version of Protestantism as a stick to beat you with in this critical hour. I'd appreciate it if you didn't use the Yahoo News version of Catholicism as a weapon against me.

What you have failed to realize is that religious revival is more important than defeating human terrorists. And we are not clearly seeing any such revival at this time, even if many people think so.

We are just seeing increased God-consciousness by people.

This is why I am trying to help you, friend. No kidding.

(It's a thankless job, alas!)

[the_doc]

Oh, but if you think it is one of my SPECIALTIES, think again!

(Anyway, what DO you make of Revelations 17:1-6, conservonator? Do you have a stock RC answer denying the OBVIOUS?)

[ballina]

"POPEY", we have the right....

How disrespectful and unprofessional of you. You had better develop some diplomatic skills and proper forms of address before you enter a courtroom and get yourself in trouble. Trust me, judges are not impressed with smart-mouths.

[sinkspur]

Besides, the Lord also taught that most professing believers are going to hell.

More Calvinist pap.

You're twisting His words, as is your wont.

You never responded to the latest statement from the Pope in which he agreed with military action to stop terrorism. Stay on topic.

[George W. Bush]

wideawake: Thanks for bashing your fellow Americans, oh ironically-monikered GWB. I was not bashing in any way. I was merely pointing out that many, if not most, who are counted among the 1 billion claimed by Rome and its supporters are not practicing Romanists. Quite a large percentage have left the church of Rome and joined other churches and still Rome counts them.

sinkspur: Are there even one hundred million who follow your droll Calvinist doctrine? And how many of those are faithful? Got me. Since they are not uniform in their doctrine of Calvinism, it's harder to estimate the actual numbers. But they are nowhere close to the numbers of regular attendees of Mass. That wasn't my point.

You've used this "one billion" thing before as though it proves something. Maybe the pope should hang a sign outside of every RC church that says "Over one billion served". Pretty ridiculous when you think about it. You know it is. And yet you parade this number as though someone, anyone, should be impressed by it.

I think American RC's like to use this fraudulent little statistic to overcome their minority status here in the States.

Actually, I was being quite generous when I allowed for even two hundred million faithful. Why don't you tell me, sinkspur, just what percentage of American RC's are actually obedient to church law and doctrine. Let's just use birth control and abortion statistics alone and leave aside the many other indicators which show how obedient American RC's are to Rome and your pope.

Personally, I doubt that even 1 in 10 American RC's is obedient in even this matter let alone many others. Care to correct me?

[George W. Bush]

sink, I forget to include you in my #272. I answered you there.

As far as JP2 in the current situation, I don't care much what he says. He's not relevant to the situation anyway and I think he knows it, far better than you do anyway. So it's fine for him to advocate peace and be "understanding" about seeking justice through warfare. To me, this sounds like some of the same mealy-mouthed sermonizing we hear from non-Roman sources which I have little regard for either. All in all, it's not much of a statement anyway. I'd guess that JP2 is just issuing his expected opinion, designed to offend no one, a mushy boilerplate statement. So I don't have a problem with it and simply could care less. Heck, if he ordered every RC in America into the streets to oppose military action, probably only about one hundred of the more liberal nuns would even show up. It has occurred to me that JP2 may have a number of motives here to quell the peacenik faction of American clergy like some of those annoying liberal bishops in the U.S. who constantly congregate to issue some statement on such tpoics. The bishops in my state are the sturdy and sensible types who don't race about using their religious authority to forward their personal secular political agenda.

[Aggressive Calvinist]

You've used this "one billion" thing before as though it proves something. Maybe the pope should hang a sign outside of every RC church that says "Over one billion served". Pretty ridiculous when you think about it.

Zing!

[Iowegian]

Pretty ridiculous when you think about it. You know it is. And yet you parade this number as though someone, anyone, should be impressed by it. I think American RC's like to use this fraudulent little statistic to overcome their minority status here in the States.

Excellent point and one I have made myself here. Add to that the ludicrous, ever-growing claim of 30,000 different Protestant denominations (they used to say 10,000 which is also ridiculous) without any proof and repeat it over and over and over as if it is true and meaningful. (Notice that nobody has ever taken me up on even naming 10% of the claimed number). It just makes them look stupid to anyone with a brain and an ounce of common sense. But that doesn't stop them, of course.

[HiTech RedNeck]

OK, so Kazakhstan jumped on the Kumbaya train? Rather than saying "we won't be first with an NBC strike"?

[George W. Bush]

Actually, it's impossible to even count non-Roman churches and their affiliations. Also, even the affiliations often do not tell you what they actually teach and believe and practice.

[esther2]

I thought about returning to the Catholic church because I'm a member of one of the mainline denominations (Presbyterian Church U.S.A.--which my mother was raised in) that seems to be speeding toward apostasy. It's hard to tell the difference between the PCUSA and the Democrat Party sometimes. But the congregation of which I'm a member is very conservative, and we probably will leave the PCUSA if the ruling body decides to approve homosexual ordination of clergy. My pastor says he thinks we'll have a good idea by February as to whether the denomination is going to split or not, so I've been waiting to see what happens.

I also have a son who is in 11th grade and has grown up in this one congregation. I don't want to take him out of this church because it's been very good for him. I also have lots of very good friends after being there for 12 years now.

And you are right about the worldwide membership of the Catholic Church. My husband's mother was from Honduras, and she was very devout--went to Mass several times a week. She passed away before he and I met. And I find the discussions about a possible Latin American pope very interesting.

P.S. Didn't I see something this morning about how the Pope said military action is okay in some limited circumstances? It sounded like St. Augustine's Just War doctrine to me, which makes sense.

[the_doc]

More Calvinist pap. You're twisting His words, as is your wont.

No, friend, the majority of churchgoers are on their way to hell. They only reason why they don't believe they are is because they are unbelievers.

sinskspur, the Church Age is the Age of the Antichrist. The Apostle John said so. And I honestly think you have been suckered.

And there are plenty of other Scriptural reasons for what I have said.

You never responded to the latest statement from the Pope in which he agreed with military action to stop terrorism. Stay on topic.

The Pope has no business talking about negotiations and dialogue. Even if he concedes that military action is warranted, his comments are inane.

If President Bush had said that he "hoped to avert military action," we would have booed him out of office.

And then there's still Revelations 17:1-6 for you.

[Conservative til I die]

I don't get it. Only Catholics suffer from being CINO's???? Are all Protestants pious by default?????