It's All Morally Relative - End Support for Israel

9/29/01 | R. Alexander

[Sabramerican]

and were clannish

Of course we are clannish. Ghettoes, expulsions, pogroms, et al, are great fun. We didn't want to share the joy with everyone else.

[bubbalovesyou]

Israel mistreats no one. Don't buy Arab bullshit. The Israelis are saints compared to the Arabs.

Really I can think for myself, without help from the Arabs.

The Israelis are fighting for their survival, and you are one of their supporters. Fine, but I'd be silly to think that the Israelis (and maybe you) are any more objective than the Arabs, under the circumstances, and if the face of the type of enemy that America found for herself last Tuesday.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't buy it that the Israelis are saints in comparison to anyone in this ******-up world.

[bubbalovesyou]

Of course we are clannish. Ghettoes, expulsions, pogroms, et al, are great fun. We didn't want to share the joy with everyone else.

What I said was, "Jews were most often minorities, and were clannish, as were many peoples."

I should have said, 'as were most peoples.' WWII being an exception that we all pray is an anomoly, I'm saying that the experience of the Jews are less unique either in the good or bad respects, than many would have you believe. Throughout history, people treated eachother like sh**. Minorities and foreigners had a tough time, especially if they were successful and envied (and clannish), as the Jews often were.

[Sabramerican]

I know the market very well. Do you know the that within 50 points of the low for the entire decade of the 90's occurred hours before the start of the American offensive in the Gulf War. The market never looked back from 1/15/91 (around 2400 on the DOW) onward.

[SkiBum]

George Washington was right about avoiding foreign entanglements. However, the U.S. media propaganda machine has severely disciplined any politician who dares discuss these matters publicly. The most recent example was destruction of Pat Buchanan.

Thus our political leadership is of one mind. Our "leaders" know that to put America first is to commit political suicide. There is no debate about free trade with China, no debate about U.S troops in the Middle East, no debate about troops in Kosovo, no debate about open borders with Mexico.

Our leaders are left to debating the size of some dinky tax cut or whether prescription drug coverage is an inalienable right.

[Lurker]

Where exactly in the Constitution is the U.S. Government given authority to give tax money to foreign governments?

I'll save you the trouble. It isn't there at all.

If Israel needs money, they can hold a bake sale.

Get this through your thick skull: You're either a Sabra, or an American. You can't be both.

L

[Sabramerican]

Damn. Where were you before I took out all those student loans. I could have studied the Constitution with you and saved the money.

[oneway]

The Arabs who can't live with Israel are the bad guys. As bad as the Nazis -- and worse, because these scum have brought their war directly to our shores

Ditto...well said....

[littlehammer]

It is interesting that if we were all in a room together we wouldn't talk like we write here. It is also interesting that as the thread keeps getting longer one side becomes more saintly and the other becomes more satanic.

I don't ask that Israel cease to exist or for them not to defend their country. I ask them to be just. You say I am one-sided, if I have failed to demand anything of the Arabs then that is my fault and I do not want to seem unjust. The Palestinians must stop their suicide bombings and like I said previously they must, as Joseph Sobran writes, act like Gandhi to give the Israelis no pretext for their violence. The Holy Father has side that both sides must stop the cycle of violence and so it must be. There is enough evil to go around and it is time for both sides to stop.

My only concern is for America. I keep going back to George Washington, remember him? Father of our Country and all that. Here is some more words from his Farewell Address:

"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens,) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove, that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of a Republican Government...Excessive partiality for one foreign nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests..."

That is my concern that the interests of America are being usurped for the benefit of a foreign country and a foreign peoples. Those that wish to base their uncritical and passionate support of Israel, to the detriment of America, on grounds of Christianity do so on a shaky foundation. Their reading of the Bible is based on private interpretation and that often leads to many false readings and is the reason for such a proliferation of churches.

Again, for the benefit of the Israel-firsters, Israel has a right to exist and defend themselves. Palestinians have to stop their attacks. Israel has to stop their injustices. Both sides have to stop the violence. My concern is for America and the preservation of its liberty and the restoration of our constitional republic. We must not become so attached to one country or so hate another that it blinds us to what is best for this country.

[bubbalovesyou]

I agree about the media. All those issues you mentioned are not debated because Americans don't really care. They don't care because they aren't properly informed by the media of the facts and important issues, like the costs and benefits of our foreign entanglements. After the recent bombings, I bet a lot of people are going to start questioning the costs of all sorts of entanglements in the Middle East.

The slopes open in only 2 months!

[Lurker]

I wish you would have.

Apparently you don't have much of a problem accepting stolen money.

As I said before. You are either a Sabra or an American. You can't be both.

Chose quickly.

L

[Sabramerican]

Your knowledge of what Sabra means is second only to your understanding of the Constitution.

Help me out. How does someone with your intellect earn enough to afford internet access?

[skr]

Well said. Considering that the Muslim Mosque is built on top of the Temple built by Solomon, one can hardly ignore that the Jewish people had been in control of the land at one point before the next group of Muslims moved in. It's certainly not a piece of land that someone stuck a pin in and said that's where we'll put 'em. The area has passed back and forth between different groups throughout the ages. It also was only a desert before the Jewish people reclaimed it, and now it's arable and prosperous, which must irk them no end, for the God of Abraham seems to have blessed the current occupants more than the Allah of Mohammed ever did.

From what I can tell, if Israel didn't exist, these terrorist groups would hate us anyway. Israel just seems to be another excuse to do so. To the terrorists, we are Infidel, the Great Satan, not to mention generally more prosperous than they are. The last is the least important to them, which is why Jihad is more important than their working to improve their living standards.

[seeker41]

THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT ISRAEL. IT COULD DISAPPEAR INTO THE MED. and they would still be coming for us. Get it through your head. It has everything to do with the Arabs despising our values and what the USA stands for, PERIOD!

[bigunreal]

That "tiny bit of land" just happens to possess the third most powerful military in the world, courtesy of technology transfers and countless billions of dollars from the United States, not through any amazing skill or genius of its people. Those arab countries may be larger in geographical terms, but except for a tiny cadre of oil shieks and nasty dictators, the people are mired in third world squalor. To pretend that rock throwing, poverty stricken youngsters pose a threat to a military and intelligence force (unlike our pathetic CIA, the Mossad is a superb and deadly agency) that is light years ahead of any of its neighbors in every sense of the word, is ridiculous.

[dstarr]

No one really wanted Israel until the Jews had made it into a productive and attractive country. The Palestinians were offered a homeland in another one of the countries in the region but they wouldn't take the offer. The land had belonged to Israel and they went back to reclaim it after WWII. The British had control of it then. Read Exodus by Leon Uris. Israel has given far too much to the Palestinians now. By the way. There is a mosque on the Temple Mount where the Moslems claim that Mohammed ascended into heaven. Guess what! Mohammed never went to Jerusalem. I remember reading that about a year ago.