Posted on 09/17/2001 11:55:01 PM PDT by kattracks
Edited on 07/12/2004 3:47:02 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
p>Your tactic of generalization obviously replaces your lack of knowledge which is a very nieve way of trying to have a discussion.
This previous statement is an excellent example of how nieve you really are. You seem to support the KLA trafficking of heroin? I have seen both heroin addicts in Kosovo and the heroin that is shipped their from Afghanistan through turkey which is known as the Balkan Road. One that you have obviously never heard of. Forty percent of this heroin that is stalk piled in Kosovo goes into Europe and the KLA narco terrorists are in control of this. Their are of course are other groups but the KLA narco terrorists are the most prevalent. I will not mention them because this may confuse you.
A heroin addict you plebe does not wake up every day and chooses not to take heroin. Heroin is what they live for and all they want to do is get high, over and over again until death. A very small percentage of addicts with a lot of help can recover but not many. A group like the KLA does not care about you or any other heroin user who lives a miserable life because of the drug. All they want is to make MONEY$$$$$$$$$ at your physical and financial expense, which they do.
ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION - Have you ever gone out of your residence and seen a Heroin addict?? This is a no brainier. So get a couple of brain cells together and just say no if that is the truth and Don't rant on about Milosivic. I believe you are kicking a dead horse who will answer for what he has done. Do you have the ability to stay on topic??? The Wraith awaits your simple reply.
You mean civilians Joan? Cause NATO bombed the Serb paramilitary forces in Bosnia that were responsible for burning down villages , killing civilians. Unless you think that they should have left those forces finish their job and that you consider the paramilitary forces of Mladic and Karadzic innocent people and you feel sorry for them?
Yes, I have seen. But I really cannot understand your point Wraith. Is KLA supposed to be responsible for heroin addicts throughout the world? And you'r telling me there are no other mafias around the world trafficing drugs? You have Serbian mafia just as well, that does guns, drugs or any other mafia for that matter. Seems to me like you'r trying to make KLA the "DEVIL" himself, as though they would be the only ones responsible for drug trafficing or killings. That does not mean that I am not aware of the danger they represent (terrorism and criminality) but they’r just one of the many “organizations” that deal with those things. They’r certainly not the biggest or the most powerful of the mafias around (Columbian, Italian).
So I really don’t know why this obsession with KLA. Unless you would like to make a point that what the Serb forces did in Kosovo was justified, as they were supposed to be fighting against terrorism and drug trafficing? By killing civilians or driving them from their homes?
And NATO bombed civilians and plenty of civilian infrastructure in Bosnia.
VRN
I must admit Joan, you have a strong point regarding this matter.
Yeah, the Bosnian Muslims should have hitched their wagon to that horse.
I have already answered this in my last post. I will repeat. "Their are of course are other groups but the KLA narco terrorists are the most prevalent. I will not mention them because this may confuse you." Read before you write!!!
I am relating to the forum what I know from first hand experience about what the KLA are about. They deceived the world which is very apparent right now and their lack of support in the world makes this obvious. I do not generalize state what I know. The heroin addict that you claim to have seen is a product of how the KLA generate money. With the immanent downfall of the Teleban in Afghanistan this will be a major disappointment to the KLA because the heroin will stop to flow hence they will not enjoy the much lower profits of international heroin sales. A good thing for Slovenia and the rest of Europe. Afghanistan produces 70% of the heroin supply in the world, a fact. Keep an eye on your car though because the KLA and followers are very resourceful. Stolen Cars are used to smuggle heroin into Europe, also a fact.
I have no idea what the ratio of KLA to civilians is - do you? If we don't does that mean we get to put forward theories wherein all of the dead are either KLA or civilians, depending upon our take? You've shown less trepidation in these matters, so please, be my guest.
As to the missing Serbs, there are multiple lists, and the UN is trying to collate them at this time - it doesn't look like any of the kidnapped will still be alive, though I expect UNMIK to spare no efforts in tracking down their whereabouts - there is no difference between Serb and Kosovar Albanian civilians in this regard.
Are you saying that the rest of the bodies so haphazardly disposed of in Serbia aren't Kosovar Albanians? Who else did Milosevic kill then? Are we back to Chinese immigrants and organized crime victims?
I've read that a Muslim humanitarian said many were alive as recently as May or June of this year, and that some were used for forced labor - building houses, working in the mines, etc.
Also, many have been taken to camps in Northern Albania, and probably there they are moved when the Albanians want to avoid detection of their prisoners/slaves. Hurry and look harder. No more time to lose hoplite. Any survivors are probably getting weaker and weaker everyday...
"Are you saying that the rest of the bodies so haphazardly disposed of in Serbia aren't Kosovar Albanians? Who else did Milosevic kill then? Are we back to Chinese immigrants and organized crime victims?"
Mujahedeen have fought in the Kosovo war, as well as Bosnia. And Bosnian Muslims have been reported to have fought in the war. In many recent interviews of those "rebels" fighting in Macedonia, I recall fighters mentioning they had fought in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo, etc. So, yep, there were people from several countries who joined the fight, and likely many of them were killed.
Still, if you can reference what you've read, I'd like to see it.
Lastly, Joan, there are roughly 1,000 bodies buried in Serbia that either came from Kosovo, or were produced domestically in 1999 and buried in a clandestine manner - women and children have been recovered from these graves. You're dancing, Joan, and it isn't pretty.
Thursday, August 9, 2001 (Tanjug)
ASSOCIATION OF FAMILIES OF MISSING KOSOVARS URGE SPEEDIER INVESTIGATION
BELGRADE - Members of the Association of families of persons kidnapped or gone missing in Kosovo and Metohija have asked in talks with representatives of the UNMIK Belgrade office that the U.N. civilian administration in the southern Serbian province step up investigations of eyewitness accounts that about 420 kidnapped Kosovo Serbs are being kept in prisons and used for forced labor. Association Co-ordinator Sima Spasic said "there are witnesses who claim kidnapped Serbs can be found in 15 locations throughout Kosovo, who are imprisoned and forced to work in camps and mines." According to these reports, about 420 kidnapped Serbs are used for forced labor at the Deva Mines near Djakovica, southwestern Kosovo and Metohija.
By Miroslav Filipovic
Danas, Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia, April 3, 2000
"The commotion surrounding the existence of concentration camps in which Serbs are imprisoned in the region of Kosovo and Metohija demonstrates that we have hit the bull's eye. The concentration camps exist and KFOR cannot continue to hide it," Sefko Alomerovic, the president of the Helsinki Committee in Sandzak, tells Danas.
Alomerovic again reconfirms that many authoritative KFOR officials as well as officials of international humanitarian organizations who have done everything to deny this claim are wrong. The head of the office of the International Red Cross in Pristina has even threatened Sefko Alomerovic with arrest.
"Once again, I publicly claim that concentration camps for Serbs in Kosovo exist. When I say I claim this, I am completely conscious of what it means. Our activists have been to no less than five concentration camps, illegally, of course, entered the camps, seen the imprisoned Serbs and spoken with them. I claim that at this moment, or more precisely, as of March 14, there existed at least five such concentration camps in which at least 142 people of non-Albanian nationality were imprisoned, the great majority of them Serbs. Since the number of kidnapped Serbs according to reports filed by their families is at least 1,000, I assume that many more such concentration camps exist".
These concentration camps were established immediately following the departure of the Serbian Police and Army from Kosovo. The first of the camps was discovered as early as June, then in July and in August. These are not large collective centers such as those which formerly existed in Bosnia but enclosed facilities, usually basements or garages in city districts in which between 10 and 50 people are imprisoned. The existence of the concentration camps was "a publicly known secret"; everything happened in front of the eyes of KFOR and it would be strange indeed if it turned out that KFOR did not know and does not know of their existence.
100 locations in reserve
Alomerovic reminds that the activists of the Helsinki Committee discovered one such concentration camp last year in Kosovska Mitrovica in the garage and boiler room in the building of the former Social Insurance Administration. There were approximately 50 Serbs there who were kidnapped within the city limits. Imprisoned Serbs were also discovered in the basement of a building near the roundabout and the Automobile Association. The basement of the "Afrodita" restaurant was also a concentration camp for imprisoned Serbs; it was run by the waiters in the restaurant.
"Through the relatives of one of the prisoners we reported the existence of the concentration camp in the former Social Insurance Administration to KFOR in Kosovska Mitrovica. KFOR carried out a raid, surrounding the building with a large number of troops, and it looked like they meant business. When they went to the door of the concentration camp and knocked, two Albanians came out and said that there was no concentration camp or prisoners there. Can you imagine, the two Albanians refused to allow a large number of armed KFOR troops to carry out a search of the building. They permitted this only the next day. At that time the KFOR patrol found approximately 50 KLA soldiers in the building."
Through the relatives of the prisoners, KFOR was advised immediately regarding the existence of every one of these places but KFOR did not find a single one of them because every one would be moved to a rural area, to a private house or abandoned buildings of agricultural cooperatives immediately after KFOR was notified. The Helsinki Committee in Sandzak claims that it is aware of the existence of a large number of concentration camps between Klina, Pec and Djakovica. It also has knowledge of a concentration camp in Studenica near Istok, and the concentration camp in Drenovac which was established by the 113th Brigade of the KLA. It also knows the name of the man who headed these concentration camps. It is assumed that the Albanians in Kosovo have at least a hundred locations for concentration camps to which they relocate the imprisoned Serbs as needed.
Alomerovic says that the existence of secret concentration camps can be proven indirectly. If the Association of Relatives of Kidnapped Citizens reported approximately 1,000 kidnapped persons, and there is no proof that they have been killed, then where are these people? There are no bodies, no mass graves and they are not in public prisons. A thousand people is not a small number, and Kosovo is not a black hole. If they were killed, some evidence of them would have been discovered. There is no evidence because they are in secret prisons which we are calling concentration camps.
KFOR as an accomplice?
"When these concentration camps began to be established there was no clear idea of what was to be done with these people," says Alomerovic. "I have no way of knowing the motives behind every kidnapping or arrest but I assume that there were many factors. Perhaps they were imprisoned for ransom or for revenge, I cannot say. However, when the authority of KFOR was consolidated and when the civil and military authority of the Kosovo Albanians was consolidated, I think that the motive of these kidnappings and imprisonment in the concentration camps became to prepare for exchange for Albanians imprisoned in Serbian prisons. That is probably the reason why the treatment of these people is now better. The number of Albanians imprisoned in Serbian prisons is also unknown. Numbers between 800 and as many as two or three thousand have been cited. I support the exchange of the imprisoned but only on the principle of 'everyone for everyone'."
Family members of kidnapped Serbs seriously accuse KFOR of either being incompetent or lacking the desire to address the issue of concentration camps.
"How can they say there are no concentration camps when they refused to investigate even the five addresses which we gave them? I am publicly asking KFOR why it does not investigate the addresses which we have given them. Their reaction most resembles that of accomplices. I cannot fathom the reaction of these authorities. They are not naive peasants. These are the armed authorities who represent the international community in Kosovo. I understand that they are in a difficult position, that they cannot figure out our complicated relations but if we report a crime to the police which it is responsible for investigating, and the police refuses to investigate it, then it is an accomplice to the crime. If the members of a family report a kidnapping, if they say who, when, where and how was kidnapped, if they say who kidnapped him, and KFOR does nothing, then that is direct encouragement of the kidnappers," emphasizes Alomerovic.
If the goal of officials in Kosovo, regardless of the organization or nation to which they belong, is to deny or cover up the existence of concentration camps, that is even understandable to some extent. However, it is extremely difficult to understand why humanitarian organizations active in Serbia are doing the same thing. The statements of the spokespersons of KFOR, UNMIK, the president of the Helsinki Committee in Kosovo and the president of the regional Human Rights Commission in Kosovo are directly or indirectly disputing the information provided by the Helsinki Committee in Sandzak which has been published in both the national and foreign press.
Although none of these statements is phrased so as to bring into doubt any of the facts which Sefko Alomerovic provided to the International Red Cross Committee and other international organizations, a bitter impression remains because this is not an academic debate and human lives are at stake.
"It is strange but indicative in itself that only now has a widespread campaign been launched to deny something which nine months ago was 'a publicly known secret' while nothing has been done to verify the facts which I gave directly to delegates of the International Red Cross Committee back on January 20, 2000," concludes Sefko Alomerovic.
Belgrade, July 23 - Sefko Alomerovic, President of the Helsinki Board for Human Rights in Sandzak, said that the mass grave in Suva Reka confirmed his earlier suspicions that there were several collective centers in Kosovo and one command center for covering up the crimes committed against Serbs.
Monday's issue of the Belgrade daily "Glas javnosti" quotes Alomerovic as saying that the Board had reliable data that some of the people who were kidnapped in September or October 1999 "were alive until late May this year", but that their fate is unknown.
He criticized UNMIK officials for attempting to deny the existence of the mass grave in Suva Reka, which contains the bodies of murdered Kosovo Serbs.
Alomerovic said that the Cheku brothers, former heads of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), now leaders of the Kosovo Protection Corps, had organized most of the kidnappings and killings.
The Helsinki Board says that President of the Municipality of Pec Naim Cheku, a relative of Agim and Besim Cheku, used to drive a Mercedes, owned by kidnapped Sadet Basic.
"When Basic's family told Agim Cheku and Hashim Thaqui that Naim Cheku was driving the young man's car, they were promised that the car would be returned. The body of Sadet Basic [name of Bosniak or Roma?] was found in a Pec street the following day", Alomerovic said.
He also mentioned other cases of kidnappings and killings in Kosovo, stressing that numerous people witnessed the killing of Ismet and Dzevad Sodanovic [Bosniaks (?)], and that international observers were witnesses to the kidnapping of a Serb from Mitrovica.
Alomerovic said that the representatives of international organizations were indifferent to the problem of missing Serbs, Montenegrins, and Bosniacks in Kosovo. "They say that things are now much easier, as if they were not been able to deal with the problems before October 5", Alomerovic said.
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VRN
Hmmm. No, it's still a fact, and Fikret is still a war profiteer, not a leader.
Any other bright ideas?
Ok, I wish Fikret Abdic and his followers weren't shuffled off into an Apartheid zone by their 'allies' in the R.S. after being expelled by the BiH forces from Bihac.
Qaulified sympathy. Another meaningless response.
Hmmm. No, it's still a fact, and Fikret is still a war profiteer, not a leader.
Another meaningless reply. What's better for you, a leader who chooses and starts a war (Izetbegovic), or a war profiteer who wants peace because it is good for business? Any other bright ideas?
Accepting that you continue to ignore what doesn't suit your half-baked opinions and that you'll never admit to using the same obfuscations as you accuse others. You are a hypocrite, pure and simple (in the best of British tradition).
VRN
http://www.cdsp.neu.edu/info/students/marko/vreme/vreme5.html
When the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina (ABiH) decided in June 1994 to settle accounts with Fikret Abdic, some 45,000 people fled with him to the Republic of Srpska Krajina; Croatia refused to accept them, Europe as well; the refugees refused to return to the territory controlled by the 5th Corp ABiH and, these days, the majority of them celebrated the anniversary in the small area around Velika Kladusa which Fikret Abdic controls with help of the army of Krajina Serbs.
Outcast Bosnian refugees stage Xmas hunger strike
(c) 1995 Copyright Nando.net
(c) 1995 Reuters
KUPLENSKO, Croatia - Children of an outcast Bosnian Moslem group stranded in Croatia are waiting for Santa Claus to show up as their parents stage a hunger strike to alert the world to their misery.
"At the time of holidays and feasts we want to express our protest in this way, hoping that a solution for us can be found, a way out of this valley of horror," said Izet Latic.
He and 74 other refugees loyal to fallen Moslem warlord Fikret Abdic have been on a protest fast since Thursday, the day after NATO took over Bosnian peacekeeping from the U.N.
Abdic's "autonomasi" (the autonomous) are afraid to return to their homes in the Bihac region now that it is back under the rule of the Bosnian government whose army they fought.
A cordon of Croatian police confines 15,000 refugees to a shanty town built along a rutted country road. They cannot make their way to the Croatian capital Zagreb, 50 km (30 miles) to the north, or Germany, their dream destinations.
"If only they allowed visitors, over the holidays at least," said 36-year old Latic.
Abdic, a millionaire businessman, has retreated to comfortable exile in the Croatian port of Rijeka from where he lobbies for "salvation" for his followers in the Bihac area.
His wife and two children have remained among his disciples in tents and huts erected along a road winding through a narrow valley transformed by melted snow into a sea of mud.
Their "homes" are patched together with almost anything, from wooden planks to cardboard and roof tiles. They have wood-burning stoves but no electricity or running water.
Underneath a decapitated slaughtered cow hanging from a hook, blood mixes with the dark brown mud. Unguarded and uncared for, war-wise children play outside in donated Italian rubber boots. One rides a small, grey, mud-coated donkey called Mario, prodding him with a cane. A man from the British aid organisation Feed the Children stopped by the other day to hand out apples to the children, their teacher Bajrama Pehlic said.
The children claim cheerfully that they got candy and other presents too but those are only the fantasies of deprived little ones, Pehlic said sadly.
But there is a chance they will really get what they long for most -- chocolate, sweets, cookies and cakes -- at this year-end holiday which all Bosnians have traditionally celebrated regardless of their religion.
The U.N. relief agency (UNHCR) is hoping that the Italian government will soon send in a plane loaded with goodies for the children of Kuplensko camp. A UNHCR official told Reuters the handout could take place on December 31. That would still be in time for the holiday.
"We usually had Santa on the eve of the New Year, you know," said Pehlic.
During the Yugoslav communist era most Bosnians, except Catholic Croats, celebrated Christmas mainly around the New Year, not December 25.
About 7,000 Abdic refugees have returned to the Bihac-area town of Velika Kladusa, their former stronghold, since the August collapse of their separatist revolt.
But rumours of murder and harassment there deter those remaining in Kuplensko camp from taking the same route despite repeated official pledges of safety and equal rights from the Bosnian government in Sarajevo.
"Did you ever listen to Radio Velika Kladusa? If you did you would understand why we cannot go back there," said one bitter elderly man. "They call us traitors, they call us monkeys and they say we should not be allowed to walk down the main street with our chins up."
He said he lost two sons and two sons-in-law in the 1993-95 Moslem-on-Moslem conflict, a strange sideshow in Bosnia's war, ended in November by the Dayton peace agreement signed by Serbian, Moslem and Croatian leaders.
Fikret Abdic won the SDA leadership with 1,040,307 votes to Izetbegovic's 874,213. Abdic gave up the leadership after Izetbegovic promised that he would go for a negotiated settlement. 'begovic lied and being far more interested in building an Islamic state (this is information from various BosMos papers (and authors)such as Dani and Oslobodjenje publish after the war), sank the Lisbon agreement with the support of the US.
Then, to cap it off, after the war when elections were to be held, 'begovic and his cronies accused Abdic of 'war crimes' which the ICTY took note of and he was thus disqualified from being a candidate. It goes to show to what lengths 'begovic and his pan-islamicsts would go to keep Abdic out. Finally, Croatia handed over Abidc to be tried in a Bosnian court for war crimes - it seems as if the ICTY didn't want to touch this case with a barge pole....
VRN
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