God Did It Part III

Dynamist.com | 9/16/01

[2sheep]

Here is another interesting quote...from 1998:

"If you don't get hit by a North Korean ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) over the next five years, chances are you will suffer a horrible, premature death when Osama bin Laden poisons your hometown water supply."  ...CIA intelligence chief John Gannon  -  107  and  Gannon Speech, Hoover Institution and  Hoover Institution National Security Forum (1998)

[Hank Kerchief]

I will say that God has consistantly poured out His wrath..without prophetic warning...there was no prophet in Sodom, there was no prophetic warning in Babel, there was no prophetic warning in the days of Noah.

I do not believe this is likely. First, it is dangerous to assert an unsubstantiated negative. You do not know there was no prophetic warning just because none is recorded. But in the examples you provided, there is evidence indicating there was prophetic warning and in one case, there certainly was prophetic warning.

First, the verse in Amos is very strong.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Also, the verse does not say God reveals His secrets to the populace at large, or even to those who will be affected, but to his servants the prophets. My point is, unless you yourself are a prophet and God has revealed his intentions to you, to claim to know the purposes and intentions of God in any event is presumptuous.

Surely, the things which have been revealed belong to us, and can be proclaimed, but the, "secret things," belong to God, and it is dangerous to presume one knows what God has not seen fit to reveal. It is dangerous to ascribe the horrible events just past to any intention of God.

Deutoronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

As for your examples. Enoch was probably still alive when the languages were confused at Babel, and Enoch was a prophet. (He may also have been alive in Noah's day.)(Jude 14.)

Certainly God revealed his intentions to Noah, and while the Scriptures never specifically say Noah was a prophet, he was certainly God's servant, and had God's will revealed to him, and was used by Jesus as a prophetic example.

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, not only did God reveal his intentions to Abaraham (a prophet, Genesis 20:7) but discussed it in detail. If you read the passage about Abraham's intercession (Genesis 18:23-33) you will find that God was willing to forego destroying Sodom if there were only ten righteous individuals in that city, and when the City was destroyed, He first led out of it all that were innocent.

As for the Revelations passage, it is a great stretch to make it fit what happened at the WTC. For example, just this much,

"18:11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 18:12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 18:13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men,"

has these things wrong with it: the merchants of the world are hardly in mourning over the event (and some are no doubt secretly happy about it) and since when were "slaves" being traded in this country. For that business, you have to go to the Moslem world, mostly in Africa. The stock market opens today, and it will be business as usual, praise God!

Buy the way, I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and I believe many others that have expressed similar views are sincere. I hope that what I have said is not offensive, because I hope to convince you, not to change your views, but to be careful, and to study the Bible you base your views on to be sure you haven't let your zeal and sincerity overcome your best reason.

Now I have to go to work. I have all manner of vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble to sell.

Hank

[George W. Bush]

I heard he and Robertson both say what they have always said. If we continue to practice and promote what the Bible calls sin, God may one day remove his hand of protection. He can bless us if we repent from the deep sin we have fallen into. Falwell believes that this could be why we suffered this great evil. He did not say he was happy that people were murdered, he was deeply saddened. He was only guilty of thinking that God judges sin, in whatever manner he chooses. In this case Falwell was saying that it could be that he did so by removing his hand of protection. That is all. This line of argument does not really hold up. If you believe that the world will eventually be destroyed, then even if God were specifically protecting America (a strange idea of Americans as a second Chosen People), then even a perfectly repentant and obedient America will be chastened along with all others in the Tribulation. So, even an America that was the most godly and obedient in all of history will not forestall God's plan. Nor can it expect to completely stop evil. Or to be free of evil itself.

God is no respecter of persons. Or of nations. But His Will will be done. None of us should be so quick, as Falwell and Robertson have been, to demand that we understand immediately what His purpose was in allowing this tragic event. I expect that He allowed it to fulfill many of His purposes at once. He had no single reason and His many purposes will unfold over the course of years or decades.

God didn't cause it. But the WTC crashes will fulfill His will ultimately in many ways.

[RnMomof7]

As for your examples. Enoch was probably still alive when the languages were confused at Babel, and Enoch was a prophet. (He may also have been alive in Noah's day.)(Jude 14.)

Hank you are adding to the scriptures..God might also have sent a telegram...but did He?

Certainly God revealed his intentions to Noah, and while the Scriptures never specifically say Noah was a prophet, he was certainly God's servant, and had God's will revealed to him, and was used by Jesus as a prophetic example.

Adding to Gods word again..probably? Is there scripture to indicate that BEFORE God told Noah to build the ark that he sent a prophet to warn them? Noah was not told to preach judgement and to fill the ark with repentant people..this was Gods final act and it was sovereign..there was no longer time to repent.."My Spirit will not foreverstrive with man"

As for Sodom and Gomorrah, not only did God reveal his intentions to Abaraham (a prophet, Genesis 20:7) but discussed it in detail. If you read the passage about Abraham's intercession (Genesis 18:23-33) you will find that God was willing to forego destroying Sodom if there were only ten righteous individuals in that city, and when the City was destroyed, He first led out of it all that were innocent.Now go back and read it again..yes Abraham knew..but did God SEND him to warn them to repent..or had God already determined the judgement? It was only the pleading of Abraham that spared any...PSSSSS God knew,before He asked how many righteous men were within those walls and He saved them

As for the Revelations passage, it is a great stretch to make it fit what happened at the WTC. For example, just this much,

"18:11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 18:12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

Have you watched the world's reaction to the bombing? have you seen their stock markets..you dont think there has been much mouring over what this means to the USA and their markets?...there was no "buying and selling " the world watched

18:13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men," has these things wrong with it: the merchants of the world are hardly in mourning over the event (and some are no doubt secretly happy about it)

Hank we now have a 'gobal' economy that was there money that was lost too..there is no more a we and us ..just a one world economy..our tax dollares will bail out the international business ,dont kid your self..those that own part of our economy were weeping and morning the loss cfo manna

and since when were "slaves" being traded in this country. For that business, you have to go to the Moslem world, mostly in Africa. The stock market opens today, and it will be business as usual, praise God!

Go to a greek concordance and look up the word slave..but trust me the coming trouble will bec so bad that the muslims will suspend trading their slaves

Buy the way, I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and I believe many others that have expressed similar views are sincere. I hope that what I have said is not offensive, because I hope to convince you, not to change your views, but to be careful, and to study the Bible you base your views on to be sure you haven't let your zeal and sincerity overcome your best reason. Now I have to go to work. I have all manner of vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble to sell.

Have a good day Hank..I am no prophet..but I think we ignore this and go on with business as usual at our own peril!

[George W. Bush]

less boldly...

[RnMomof7]

looks ok on netscape...why the difference?

[George W. Bush]

You left a bold tag open. The one after Enoch. The whole post was bolded after the first half-dozen words.

Maybe you could get IE 5 or 6 for Mac. You'd have fewer problems. Netscape really does lag technically and there is no reason to hope for it to improve substantially.

[drot]

GWB You talk like one who knows but you don't

"This line of argument does not really hold up. If you believe that the world will eventually be destroyed, then even if God were specifically protecting America (a strange idea of Americans as a second Chosen People), then even a perfectly repentant and obedient America will be chastened along with all others in the Tribulation. So, even an America that was the most godly and obedient in all of history will not forestall God's plan. Nor can it expect to completely stop evil. Or to be free of evil itself.

Well my friend what are you going to have to say about this RIGHT NOW

II Chron 7:14

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

The above don't address the unsaved it addresses the people who are His. One big problem and indictment of the Christian Church

Regards

don 

[George W. Bush]

"If my people, I read this as applying to the ancient Jews. A lot of the ideas that circulate around the idea of America as a Chosen People rely upon the misuse of scripture specifically intended for ancient Jews as God chastened them to make read the establishment of ancient Israel under the rulership of the House of David.

Let's not try to drag every ambiguous verse from the OT and try to apply it to Christians. This is a misuse of the Old Testament.

[drot]

You best had read a little more. That aint even a good cop-out

Regards

don

[drot]

Hey Geo. My people apply as much to the real saved church which is made up of both Jew and Gentile.

I am not trying to say the Americans are God's chosen people. Only a good live Calvinist would do anything like that because he holds the God chosed the "elect" and a large number of Americans fall into that group

regards

don

[RnMomof7]

bump for later

[RnMomof7]

a bump

[George W. Bush]

...because he holds the God chosed the "elect" and a large number of Americans fall into that group I'm afraid it's a rather small number...

[joathome]

"But I think we simplify this by saying that "God allowed it"

The fact that it happened PROVES that God allowed it! Think about it.......

1) God has no ability to intervene, or

2) God has the ability to intervene, but deliberately chose not to save these people (although he may have intervened and spared us from something even worse. We don't know, do we?) or

3) God has the ability to intervene, but does not become involved in the affairs of man.

Any other possibilities?

I would say that my God is number two. My God is not impotent like God Number one, and He is not uninvolved in the affairs of men, like God number three.

[RnMomof7]

But I think we simplify this by saying that "God allowed it" The fact that it happened PROVES that God allowed it! Think about it.......

1) God has no ability to intervene, or
2) God has the ability to intervene, but deliberately chose not to save these people (although he may have intervened and spared us from something even worse. We don't know, do we?) or
3) God has the ability to intervene, but does not become involved in the affairs of man.
Any other possibilities?
I would say that my God is number two. My God is not impotent like God Number one, and He is not uninvolved in the affairs of men, like God number three.

I would agree with number 2...with a new question to you...isnt a failure to act a positive act and actually a decision?

[drot]

All that says is the Calvinist makes it an elite group. It seems to be giving them something to pound thier chest about

regards

don

[Don'tMessWithTexas]

In this thread we are dealing with one of the most profound mysteries. A Christian must affirm that God is sovereign over all things. All creatures are so in His hand that without his will they cannot so much as move. Therefore, not one thing happens by chance.

If we reject God's sovereignty over all things, then we tie His hands and make him subject to the will of man. This places man equal with God and that cannot be true.

God accomplishes His will in two ways. He acts immediately, through His direct Hand. He also acts through secondary causes, often using the instrumentality of men.

If wicked men are used, it is often said that God is the author of sin. This is blasphemous. God used sinful men to nail the Lord, who knew no sin, to the cross. Was the crucifixion a wicked act? Absolutely. Were the Roman soldiers and Pharisees responsible? Absolutely. Were they free to refuse to participate in this wicked act? Yes. Was the crucifixion outside of the will of God? Not all, for without it man could not be saved. Therefore, God is absolutely sovereign. At the same time, evil men were righteously held responsible. In the end, God was glorified and salvation wrought for sinners.

I have asked myself so often these last days "why?" I cannot say with certainty. I know that it would not have happened without God's permission. I know that God is not the author of evil. On the other hand, I do not know what it was supposed to mean.

All the affliction that faces mankind is a result of sin. The terrible things that befall us are the result of our sin. The horrenous events of the last week are the result of man's sin. Christ came to pay the debt of that sin for those he came to save. That is what makes his death so precious. All that being said, it is sophomoric and facile to say that these atrocities are the direct result of our national sins. That is entirely too convenient. On the other hand, we as a nation would be foolish not to be chastened and led to repent for our great wickedness. No doubt we as a nation have permitted great wickedness in our land. This should humble us and cause us to cry out to God for forgiveness and mercy.

By the same token, I am a great sinner too and have committed much wickedness. I may not have sanctioned the national sins of abortion or homosexulaity, but I have failed to love God or my neighbor as I ought. It would be foolish for me not to be chastened and to remain in a stiff-necked condition.

The people who died on the planes, in the WTC, and in the Pentagon never thought that Tuesday would be the end of their world. For the victims of these atrocities, the Bible offers the promise of eternal life to those that died in Christ. The moments of terror have been obliterated by the rapture of heaven. Those that died outside of Christ will spend eternity in unspeakable torment.

For those of us that remain, this truth offers great hope and comfort to the Christian. It also should cause the Christian to examine his life for the fruits of grace and whether or not we actually have a desire to walk in the will of God. On the other hand, it is indeed an alarm to the unconverted and reveals that God is mercifully providing the opportunity to repent and lean on Him.

In that regard, these events occurred not for the sins of those in the planes or in the buildings, however, it will result in God receiving all glory and honor.

[nonliberal]

Many have wondered why Muslims allow terrorists to live among them. It is time we ostracised Fallwell and Robertson to the lunatic fringe and made them pariahs like David Duke.

And to all you Buchanan haters out there, remember, the person who excommunicated David Duke from the Republican Party was one Patrick Joseph Buchanan.

[PhilipFreneau]

First, the verse in Amos is very strong.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Also, the verse does not say God reveals His secrets to the populace at large, or even to those who will be affected, but to his servants the prophets. My point is, unless you yourself are a prophet and God has revealed his intentions to you, to claim to know the purposes and intentions of God in any event is presumptuous.

It is unclear to me why you are fixated on this verse from Amos. One could be equally fixated on a verse or two from Ecclesiastes, or, for that matter, on one of many verses from any Book. I agree that the Mystery of God is not finished until the days of voice of the seventh angel (Rev 10:7); but did God give us His Word's of ships, costliness, fornication, dainty and goodly things, merchants waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies, 'Great city that reigneth over the kings of the earth', etc., for practice? I see it as a clear warning of our near worship of materialsm, and of our falling away from Him, His Commandments, and in general His guidance.

Therefore, should we quit at Amos 3:7: adhering to His Commandments, and forgetting about the rest? Maybe. Certainly it is okay (Eccl 12:13) if accompanied with the fear of God; but then we have no Jesus, no Paul, no Peter, no Jude, no James, no John, no Revelation, and, for some, no hope.

And does God only reveal Himself to His prophets? Maybe, but what about his servants? There are many in the last days (at least 144,002). Are they kept in the dark? Are they also prophets? Or are they servants to whom He reveals some of His mystery as the events in the Revelation progress, or whom He prepares for conclusions which are unclear until the occurance of the event?

I hasten not to be presumptuous, except to say that God is always right.