Walking with God

May God bless the discussion of His word!

..

I love these classics. Whitfield, Spurgeon, Wesley, Finney all these guys were amazing preachers for the Lord Jesus Christ. Great thread

bump

where do you find these old sermon texts?

Bump for a new thread

Please bump any I miss..thanks

This is an awesome sermon..It happens to tie into a series being done in my church this month

I hope God spoke to you through it!

Daniel, when admitted to a distant view of this excellent glory, fell down at the feet of the angel as one dead. And if a distant view of this glory be so excellent, what must the actual possession of it be?

And there, in a nutshell, is a big part of what keeps me going every day. Every time I catch the smallest glimpse of what is to come (Him), I want more and more and more. And yet, in patience, I remain here on this broken planet and try to be His servant as best I can. BUT I CAN HARDLY WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTTT

Amen and Amen.

Your #9: And there, in a nutshell, is a big part of what keeps me going every day. Every time I catch the smallest glimpse of what is to come (Him), I want more and more and more. And yet, in patience, I remain here on this broken planet and try to be His servant as best I can. BUT I CAN HARDLY WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonderful! That's just how it is! Thanks for your post!

A bump for a great, (if long) post! Thanks

Again we agree...but the question remains..were the sheep his sheep from before the foundation of the world?Were they created His sheep? If they were how did they repent..for are we all not "goats" when we are born due to our depravity? How we become His sheep is the question winston. Sheep are not born knowing the shepherds voice..sometimes after He has had to go after them many times and they fail to respond, the shepherd breaks the legs of the offending sheep...He carries it close to His heart so it learns His voice.. It is not born knowing Him..

I don't believe that the "question" does remain.

I requested, earlier, a True or False answer to two simple questions:

Does not our Omniscient God foreknow, with perfect and absolute precision and clarity, just what certain choices a Man will make in response to His creation and ordination of certain conditions, and what different choices a Man will make in response to His creation and ordination of different conditions?
And in regard to these Graces of God, does not our Omniscient God foreknow with perfect and absolute precision and clarity just "how much" soup He is putting in the kettle?
True, or False.

Your response:

Wesleyans do not have a doctrinal stand on God's foreknowlege,

Good grief. I would hope you are embarassed of such doctrinal mushiness. I would not claim as "presbyterian" anyone who claimed they had "no doctrinal stand" on the fundamental attributes of God.

Isaiah 46: 9 - 10 -- Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

so some will say God has "suspended" his foreknowlege to allow man the choice..

UnBiblical, per the above, and also Job:

Job 23: 13 -- But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

others will say (as has been my traditionl position)that God has perfect foreknowlege. That forknowlege is the basis of Gods predestined plan fo each of us.. Now you throw into the mix (or soup if you will*grin*) a question...is His forknowlege in itself not predestination.Rather than the predestination flow from the forknowlege..is the foreknowlege itself the predestination..

More precisely, the word "Predestination" is used (at least in the KJV) to delineate the everlasting destination of Man to which he has been pre-determined. And Man's Predestination is certainly determined by God's Foreknowledge.

But, as I have pointed out before, God's Foreknowledge Of What?

Foreknowledge and Predestination

It is either that He has predestined Men based on His Foreknowledge of His Own freely-chosen Actions towards natural Men (what the KJV generally refers to as God's "Election" or "Determinate Counsel"); or...
He has predestined Men based on His Foreknowledge of natural Men's freely-chosen actions towards Him.
Now, Given John Wesley's own admission of the Truth of the Doctrine of Total Depravity, we can summarily rule out the latter case. For as John Wesley admitted, in his natural state after the Fall, Man will never choose God of his own initiative. Thus if God's Foreknowledge were based on the latter, He would foreknow all Men rejecting Him, and damn them all.
Now, to avoid the only remaining option -- the former, that Predestination is entirely based upon God's Foreknowledge of His Own freely-chosen Actions towards natural Men, Wesley proposed that God's "Election" had been to "restore" Man's Free Will.
Trouble is, this is a completely Irrelevant "answer" to Man's Problem.
Wesley proposed a ludicrously wrong answer because he did not even understand the question. There is not "need" to "restore" to Man a "measure" of Free-Will. Man has a perfectly, absolutely, completely and utterly Free Will NOW. Man does not need his "Free Will" restored to him; he possesses the tool already, inviolate, utterly complete!! The same Free Will which freely chooses to curse God as an Unregnerate unbeliever, that very same Free Will freely chooses to praise God as a Regenerate believer but a moment later.
The Problem is not with Man's Will.
In legal terms, Wesley didn't even come to the right courtroom, let alone try the case correctly.
Man's Will does not need to be "supernaturally restored", in part or in whole; he exercised his Will quite Fully and most Freely in the Garden when he ran from God, hid himself from God, then blamed first his helpmeet and then God Himself for his Sin!!
Man's Problem is not in His Will (which is wholly Free and, contra Wesley's carnal foolishness, does not need to be "restored"); Man's Problem is in his Wants (which are Totally Depraved).

So Wesley can propose that a "measure" of Man's Free Will has been "restored" all he likes. Fact is, Man doesn't need Wesley to imagine a theology which will "restore" to him a "measure" of Free Will, Man already has Free Will. He freely Wills to do just whatsoever he Wants to do, and his ruination is just this: his Fallen spirit is implacably hostile to God. He only Wants to blaspheme God, and so he freely Wills to blaspheme God. Wesley may double his power of Will if he likes; but because his Wants are unchanged, a double-power of Will only results in him blaspheming God twice as fiercely!! Blaspheming God is all that natural man wants to do, and so it is exactly what he freely Wills to do.
Man's Wants must be supernaturally changed.
Ahhhh, but there's the rub for the Wesleyan. For even should we admit the idea of "universal" Prevenient Grace, nonetheless God, who by his Creation and his Ordinations has precisely designed the minds and hearts and souls and personalities of all and every individual man, knows with perfect precision just "how much" Grace will suffice to change a Man's Wants such that he will Want to Repent (and thus freely will to Repent, for that is now what he Wants to do), and "how much" Grace will be insufficient to the task, resulting only in the Man's rejection and further hardening.
And if this is true, then by the following formula:

God's Determinate Counsel of what actions He will perform towards Men ===>
determines His Foreknowledge of who will Repent, and who will not ===>
whom He Predestines to their everlating destination accordingly.

The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination is absolutely true.
It only "remains" for you to acknowledge the truth of this -- to admit of God's Omniscience, that which is True:
- Does not our Omniscient God foreknow, with perfect and absolute precision and clarity, just what certain choices a Man will make in response to His creation and ordination of certain conditions, and what different choices a Man will make in response to His creation and ordination of different conditions?
- And in regard to these Graces of God, does not our Omniscient God foreknow with perfect and absolute precision and clarity just "how much" soup He is putting in the kettle?
  True, or False.

Uriel double predestination troubles me..I have to say that upfront...I am trying to look at this ,not from my perspective as a woman..but from God's sovereign position... Is a failure to act the same as acting Uriel?

Where there is a choice to Act or Not Act, that Choice is itself a detrminative decision of Will.

If God chooses to Act towards His chosen, implanting in them sufficient Grace to change their Wants such that He foreknows the result is that they will now Want to Repent and thus freely choose to Repent, then He has thereby predestined them to Salvation, for He knows they will Repent as the result of His action.

If, OTOH, God chooses not to act upon the Wants of others, or to employ an insufficient amount of grace to change their Wants foreknowing that this will result only in their rejection and further hardening, then He has thereby predestined them to Judgment, for He knows that the result of that selection of inaction or differing-action will result in their non-Repentance.

To your questions..my very non orthodox Weselyan answer would be yes I do think God has total knowlege

So Then:

God, of His own Determinate Counsel, elects to Act towards some Sinners with sufficient Grace to efficaciously change their Totally-Depraved Wants unto the desire for Repentance (striking them blind on the Road to Damascus if this is what it takes) -- by his Choice;
And, God, of His Own Determinate Counsel, elects to NOT so sufficiently act towards others to efficaciously change their Wants (such as Tyre and Sidon), whom He foreknows would Repent if He had determined a sufficient dispensation of Grace thereto -- also by His choice.
And in neither case may it be said that this is based on His foreknowledge of the Man, for as Wesley has admitted, natural Man of himself would never choose to turn to God;
But rather it is wholly of God's own choice, to dispense sufficient Grace to efficaciously change the Depraved Wants of those whom He has Elected to so change, and to not efficaciously change the Depraved Wants of those whom He has Elected not to so change.

True, or False?

bump

This does not read..for God so wanted to be glorified He gave his only Son that all would give him glory

The chief end of God is to Glorify God by enjoying Himself forever.

If the most terrifying news in the world is that we have fallen uder the condemnation of our Creator and that he is bound by his own righteous character to preserve the worth of His Glory by pouring out his wrath on our sin, then the best news in all the world (the Gospel!) is that God has decreed a way of salvation which also upholds the worth of His Glory. - John Piper in Desiring God

Let me restate: The fact that there is Love and Mercy in the Cross does not mean that Love is the primary purpose. The fact that you bring a verse forward does not impress me because you have shown an amazing ability to not understand Scripture.

A small sample of verses:

And say ye, "Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to Thy holy name, and glory in Thy praise."
His glory is great in Thy salvation; honor and majesty hast Thou laid upon him.
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name; and deliver us and purge away our sins, for Thy name's sake.
Surely His salvation is nigh them that fear Him, that glory may dwell in our land.
"Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which Thou hast given Me; for Thou loved Me before the foundation of the world.

God never intended salvation as you would have me read that verse in John. For God did so love the world. But WHY did he send His Son. Not because he loved each and every single person. It was to display His Glory in Salvation and Judgement. Why can you not see this?

I will now retire to my PERSONAL song of Salvation:

Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing; Thou hast put off my sackcloth and girded me with gladness, to the end that my glory may sing praise to Thee and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto Thee for ever.

Wonderful! That's just how it is! Thanks for your post!

It pains my heart because you just don't know!

Your #18: It pains my heart because you just don't know!

Sorry, but I do!

(I do appreciate your compassion.)

I found this in Jeremiah and thought it fit your theme.

13:15 Hear and give ear; be not proud, for the LORD has spoken.

13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God before he brings darkness, before your feet stumble on the twilight mountains, and while you look for light he turns it into gloom and makes it deep darkness.

13:17 But if you will not listen, my soul will weep in secret for your pride; my eyes will weep bitterly and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock has been taken captive.