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Ukraine readies for cold, dangerous chapter in Russian war
The hill ^ | 11/20/2022 | Laura Kelly

Posted on 11/20/2022 12:59:09 PM PST by ChicagoConservative27

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To: NorseViking

The Shengen thing is a draw, but a much bigger one is the entire regime of norms and legal rules that regularize and secure investment. Poland has exported a lot of people, but it’s also developed tremendously.

Its a bit strange to discuss this with someone like you. I suppose it’s because you have not seen this in person? It is night and day, I assure you.


141 posted on 11/20/2022 7:08:00 PM PST by buwaya (Strategic imperatives )
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To: ought-six
What came first? Russia’s invasion and occupation of Crimea, or the Minsk Agreements?

Let's tell the whole story -- not just your warped view. With the breakup of the USSR, the Ukes agreed to make Crimea an autonomous region in 1991. The US invaded Ukraine through the CIA and the state department in the deadly and brutal Madon revolution in 2013. Russia then stepped into Crimea, which had been Russian territory for 300 years before the USSR gave it to the Ukes, to give the citizens of Crimea a chance to vote on annexation with Russia and leave the brutal and corrupt Ukrainian Nazi state. They did and unanimously voted to become part of Russia. It remains to this day and will until Russia, and Russia alone, decides to give it up (don't hold your breath)>

And, you are aware, I’m sure, that Russia said it was not a recognized combatant under the Minsk Agreements and thus was not bound by any provisions affecting Russia.

Russia was a signatory to the Minsk agreement. Those agreements called for Ukraine to stop the attacks on the separatist regions of the east of Ukraine. These regions were Russian. Over eight years, the Ukes killed almost 14,000 Ukrainian citizens of predominantly Russian ethnicity. This is after the forced social change of no Russian language or teaching of the same in schools in the region. This was forced on a Russian culture with generations of Russian heritage by the tyrants of Ukraine (ethnic purity by the Ukes).

What about Russia violating the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, wherein Russia pledged to honor Ukraine’s independence and sovereignty and promised to defend Ukraine from outside aggression?

What about NATO and the US violating their promise not to expand in return for Gorbachov's agreement to give up East Germany? And over the preceding 20-plus years, they proceeded to double the size of NATO, a so-called defensive organization -- BUT NOT, up to the doorstep of Russia with missiles in many of those border countries.

So, you expect Putin to look at the lies and aggressive nature of NATO and the US, culminating in the US invasion via the CIA color revolution (Madon) in 2013? While seeing example after example of attempted regime change by the west (primarily the US) in country after country?

Why, hell no. He stood up for his country as JFK did in 1961 when the Ruskies placed nukes 90 miles from our shore after his invasion of a sovereign country (Bay of Pigs) for regime change failed miserably!

So, exactly who is the aggressor? Exactly who invaded who for the purpose of regime change in....?
-Vietnam
-Iraq
-Afghanistan
-Syria
-Libya
-Yugoslavia/Kosovo

Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice (or five or more times) - shame on me.

Good try, Brandon (10% for the big guy).

142 posted on 11/20/2022 7:08:40 PM PST by icclearly
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To: buwaya

“but a much bigger one is the entire regime of norms and legal rules that regularize and secure investment. Poland has exported a lot of people, but it’s also developed tremendously.”

Is it a joke, yes? Tell when Russia is going to nationalized the EU investments. Germany and Poland are doing it to Russian investments as we speak. Regarding Poland it was booming on the Ukrainian misery over last 8 years. It comes to an end.


143 posted on 11/20/2022 7:11:12 PM PST by NorseViking
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To: higgmeister

Yeah, go back to Washington and push the case against Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea. NOTHING they said indicates that they (Graham and McCain) “clearly intended to prosecute the war into Russia to overthrow Putin.” That is your assumption, and your assumption is not based on fact.

I notice you said, “THE Ukraine;” not “Ukraine.” By applying the definite article to the name, you are delegitimizing Ukraine’s status as an independent and sovereign nation, which is EXACTLY what Putin has been doing.

Again, no one called for an offensive against Russia as a country, but rather an offensive to evict the Russian invaders from Ukraine.


144 posted on 11/20/2022 7:14:14 PM PST by ought-six (Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule. )
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To: Chunga85

“Your repetitive comments are inane and arguing with the likes of you is a waste of time.”

Because you can’t logically do so!

“You are a waste of time and that’s why you and your selfish double-talk will be ignored in the eyes of the world.”

It’s not double talk: It’s called reason. Something you are wholly ignorant of.


145 posted on 11/20/2022 7:17:05 PM PST by ought-six (Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule. )
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To: NorseViking

Spain is a trivial EU aid recipient these days. It should be a payer, not a payee by next year.

And, of course, you can get stuffed.

Russia’s problems have nothing to do with “pride”, but it’s depraved socio-economic system.

Russians, the people, seem perfectly happy to leave “pride”, or whatever it is, at the border whenever they can leave.


146 posted on 11/20/2022 7:23:38 PM PST by buwaya (Strategic imperatives )
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To: buwaya

Do you know that PIGS mean in the context of Europe? Do you know that Russia is a #2 recipient of immigrants in the World after the US? Not Spain. You, yourself seem like left the hellhole. Why judge everyone else by your own low standards? Do you know that more Ukrainian refugees came to Russia during this conflict compared to every other country?


147 posted on 11/20/2022 7:28:41 PM PST by NorseViking
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To: NorseViking

Pigs is no longer. It’s just PG. And it’s wrong, as Eastern Europe is missing.

Russia gets “immigrants” in the sense of ethnic Russians fleeing Kazakhstan et al.

The fact remains, Russians flee Russia for the “west” when they can, it’s a huge brain drain.


148 posted on 11/20/2022 7:34:38 PM PST by buwaya (Strategic imperatives )
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To: icclearly

“With the breakup of the USSR, the Ukes agreed to make Crimea an autonomous region in 1991.”

Not quite. In June 1992, Ukraine agreed to allow Crimea the status of an “autonomous republic,” but that only applied to economic pursuits; but Crimea was to remain, and in fact did remain an integral part of Ukraine.

“The US invaded Ukraine through the CIA and the state department in the deadly and brutal Madon revolution in 2013.”

That is just pure hyperbole. The US didn’t invade Ukraine.

“Russia then stepped into Crimea...”

Russia didn’t “step into” Crimea: It invaded it in February, 2014 (BTW. while pro-Russia president Yanukovych was still in office, though only for about 24 hours more before he abandoned his office and fled to Russia).

“...which had been Russian territory for 300 years before the USSR gave it to the Ukes...”

Yup, in 1954.

“...to give the citizens of Crimea a chance to vote on annexation with Russia and leave the brutal and corrupt Ukrainian Nazi state.”

The Ukrainian constitution addresses such referenda, and as long as the constitution was followed such referenda could take place. Of course, Russia screamed FOUL! because if the constitution had been followed there would have been no support for Crimean secession and Russian annexation.

“Over eight years, the Ukes killed almost 14,000 Ukrainian citizens of predominantly Russian ethnicity.”

Lie. A lie told over and over again by you pro-Russia trolls.
The 14,000 number referred to ALL deaths, combatants and non-combatants; and of that number, only about 3700 were civilians.

“What about NATO and the US violating their promise not to expand in return for Gorbachov’s agreement to give up East Germany? And over the preceding 20-plus years, they proceeded to double the size of NATO, a so-called defensive organization — BUT NOT, up to the doorstep of Russia with missiles in many of those border countries.”

Another lie. Even Gorbachev said there was no such promise.

You revert to the loser of an argument’s standard position: “But, but, America did it, too!”


149 posted on 11/20/2022 7:37:15 PM PST by ought-six (Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule. )
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To: buwaya

How do you know who are coming and leaving? Why aren’t you in Spain?
Your jokes about ‘socio-economics’ are beyond ridiculous. There are no such things as property rights and independent courts in Europe, red tape and taxation are enormous. Russia is light years ahead in terms of business climate.


150 posted on 11/20/2022 7:38:05 PM PST by NorseViking
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To: NorseViking

Buwaya votes leftist if you were wondering


151 posted on 11/20/2022 7:42:32 PM PST by mac_truck (aide toi et dieu t'aidera )
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To: JonPreston
Another Russian war crime - they found another mass grave:

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4110737/posts

152 posted on 11/20/2022 8:28:33 PM PST by kiryandil (put yer vote in the box, chump. HARHARHARHAR)
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To: ought-six
It has always been the Ukraine.   Even when it was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, I never heard it called anything but the Ukraine.   It sort of reminds me of how we say the United States.

But tell me, if Lindsey Graham intends to fight Putin, how would he do that without fighting Putin where he lives?

153 posted on 11/20/2022 9:52:20 PM PST by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: mac_truck

Not hard to figure out.


154 posted on 11/20/2022 9:55:44 PM PST by NorseViking
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To: NorseViking

I am in Spain. Bilbao in fact. We moved here after I retired. Most Spaniards own their homes (80% +, way more than in the US). People would be very surprised to hear they had no private property.

As a general matter I found US (California) red tape much worse than Spain. Also legal risk. Russia has a huge problem with risk and risk premiums generally because the law is untrustworthy vis a vis crime and “unofficial” arrangements.


155 posted on 11/20/2022 10:25:55 PM PST by buwaya (Strategic imperatives )
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To: buwaya

You are basically retelling propaganda which is not confirmed by business people.
Your property rights only count until the government decided it wants your property. It doesn’t take place in Russia.
How is unemployment in Spain? I have no doubt that you can live there as a retiree from the US. For the locals it is not that rosy.


156 posted on 11/20/2022 10:48:30 PM PST by NorseViking
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To: buwaya
With regard the military cutbacks you attempted to goad me with, there already have been very large cutbacks in the past thirty years.

My own brother got a force strength reduction retirement after only 17 years of service as a Major.

The Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) program has closed more than 350 military installations in five BRAC rounds: 1988, 1991, 1993, 1995, and 2005.   These five BRAC rounds constitute a combined savings of $12 billion annually.

Two of the Air Force bases where I was stationed in my six years of service were affected.

McClellan AFB was closed in 1995 and was turned over to the City of Sacramento.   It was very significant in that it was the west coast materiel and logistics Base serving the Pacific Region in the same way Warner Robins AFB served the Atlantic region.   The mission of McClellan was absorbed into Robins AFB.

Lajes AFB or "Lajes Field" located with Portuguese Air Base No. 4 in The Azores, Portugal has only a skeleton crew of about 100 American Military personnel.   With Air Force, Army and Navy missions assigned there the draw-down was drastic.   YouTube has videos of the empty school, hospital, base housing and various support building that are falling down into ruin.

The local economy tanked when we left.   The very worst thing is that the Chinese military are attempting to move in there.

157 posted on 11/20/2022 11:00:47 PM PST by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken!)
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To: higgmeister

Not goading, just pointing out what national priorities actually are, based on what the US has paying for. And I’m very familiar with the “peace dividend”, as I too had to change careers from aerospace manufacturing, which I loved, to the energy industry.


158 posted on 11/20/2022 11:05:04 PM PST by buwaya (Strategic imperatives )
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To: caww

The people will have a say when they shoot Yermak and Zelinski as traitors. They both know that. You evidently are in the dark.


159 posted on 11/21/2022 3:16:13 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now its your turn)
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To: ought-six
Not quite. In June 1992, Ukraine agreed to allow Crimea the status of an “autonomous republic,”

You are correct. And the Crimeans twice voted to leave Ukraine (1991 and 2014), with an overwhelming vote on both occasions to become a part of Russia again that exceeded 90%.

That's democracy!

Lie. A lie told over and over again by you pro-Russia trolls. The 14,000 number referred to ALL deaths, combatants, and non-combatants; and of that number, only about 3700 were civilians.

No it's not a lie! But let's assume for a moment that you are correct. So you agree it's okay for the Ukrainians to kill 14,000 of their own citizens, INCLUDING 3700 civilians.

What about NATO and the US violating their promise not to expand in return for Gorbachov’s agreement to give up East Germany?

Another lie.

Maybe it is a lie in your small mind. But academia reports otherwise, as noted HERE. Just make it up as you go along!

So Putin did exactly what we have done as an aggressor since Vietnam time after time. We preach to the world that you must follow our rules -- even if we don't.

You may buy that crap. I sure don't!

160 posted on 11/21/2022 5:50:29 AM PST by icclearly
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