Posted on 07/31/2022 6:43:07 PM PDT by McGruff
“Read the Ukrainian Constitution, clown. It says such referenda must be put to ALL citizens of Ukraine for a vote, not just those in the areas that want to secede. International law generally follows national law.”
LOL. You better limit yourself to Chevy vs Ford argument.
The ruling on Kosovo specifically mentions that the right of people for self-determination is supreme to national legislation.
As for the rest you are basically making my point.
The killing and persecution of Serbs in Kosovo is well documented, so is the universal support for the Russian authority in Crimea.
Me and my cat recognized you a camel. The public opinion and numbers are on our side, so show us your hump.
You are daft.
The right of self-determination is indeed a fundamental right, but it has to be pursuant to law. Without law, there is anarchy, chaos, and barbarism. Man established law in order to create and maintain order. Sometimes it works; sometimes it does not.
According to the International Court of Justice (ICJ), international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence; rather, the matter is up to the parties involved, and should follow the law or laws of the existing state.
The Ukrainian constitution was not followed vis-à-vis the independence movements of the Donbas region and Crimea. But, you know that. Thus, any independence declared by those regions is illegitimate, and is not recognized by international law.
Now, let’s move on to Kosovo.
After WWII, the Federal People’s Republic of Yugoslavia (FPRY for convenience) was created, establishing six republics, one of which was Serbia. Within Serbia were two autonomous provinces: Vojvodina in the north, and Kosovo in the south (but I have already explained this to you). Anyway, with the dissolution of the FPRY the various republics vied for power and dominance. Hence, the Balkans Wars of the 1990s.
The majority group in Kosovo were the ethnic Albanians. They did not want to be part of Serbia. Thus, the Kosovo War of 1998-1999, which pitted the Yugoslav Army (Serbs and Montenegrans) and the ethnic Serbs against the Kosovo. Liberation Army (KLA) and the ethnic Albanians.
According to the UNHCR, the Kosovo War was very disruptive for Kosovo. The war saw some 210,000 minority peoples (i.e., non-ethnic Albanian) displaced.
The deaths from this war have been tabulated as follows (rounded to the nearest whole): 13,500 total, from all sides. Of these, some 11,000 were ethnic Albanians (including some 2,000 KLA forces); 2,200 Serbs (including some 1,000 Serb army and police forces); some 560 Roma and others. 1,650 were declared missing, of which some 400 are Serbs.
Clearly, the ethnic Albanians got the short end of the stick in casualties. But, that is neither here nor there, other than to illustrate that the Serbs were not the disproportionate victims you appear to be claiming.
As I had pointed out in a previous post, in 1999, subsequent to the Kosovo War, Kosovo became a UN Transitional Administrative State, to have autonomy within Serbia. Serb troops withdrew. The KFOR was established in Kosovo to keep the peace.
In 2008 Kosovo declared independence from Serbia. Serbia went to the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to argue its case that Kosovo had no right to secede. Unfortunately for Serbia, the ICJ ruled against it in a 10-4 majority decision, holding that the secession did NOT violate international law and did not violate Resolution 1244 (addressed in an earlier post).
Because the Serbian constitution did not specifically address secession, the ICJ rejected Serbian claims that the move had violated its territorial integrity and “concluded that the declaration of independence on 17 February 2008 did not violate general international law”.
To date, 97 countries have recognized Kosovo’s independence. Of the five Security Council members (each holding veto power), three (US, UK, and France) recognize it; China has taken a wait-and-see position; only Russia opposes it.
But, Kosovo has a stronger argument for independence than Crimea or the DPR and LPR in the Donbas.
It doesn’t really matter what you or I think about Kosovo’s legitimacy as an independent state. And, this may surprise you, but I am on the fence about it, mainly because the Serbia constitution does not specifically address it. And, can we look to history for guidance? Yes. We can look to the United States in 1861. The US constitution, as the Serbian constitution, is also silent on secession; but subsequent rulings have held that the US constitution does not allow for secession.
Too many words to say nothing.
Check out the ruling of the UN court of Kosovo. No consent of the original motion in any form including vote is required for secession. And they don’t rule that it is a factor of the Serbian territorial organization.
Regarding the short end of the stick the Albanians were getting it is irrelevant in the grand scheme of thing. The reality is that the Serbs were subjected to genocide by the minorities all around Yugoslavia from start, nobody cared until
Molosevic has started to respond very slowly. Them the screams of war crimes srarted.
That makes the Ukrainian analogy complete.
“Regarding the short end of the stick the Albanians were getting it is irrelevant in the grand scheme of thing. The reality is that the Serbs were subjected to genocide by the minorities all around Yugoslavia from start, nobody cared until Molosevic has started to respond very slowly. Them the screams of war crimes srarted.”
Yeah? Where and when was the Serb Srebrenica? What “minorities” practiced genocide against the Serbs? The Serbs suffered at the hands of the Croats up in Croatia; but, of course, the Croats were not a minority.
“That makes the Ukrainian analogy complete.”
In your dreams.
“Check out the ruling of the UN court of Kosovo. No consent of the original motion in any form including vote is required for secession. And they don’t rule that it is a factor of the Serbian territorial organization.”
I was unaware there was such a thing as the UN Court OF Kosovo. So, Kosovo has its own UN Court? Is it in Pristina? How come Serbia doesn’t have its own UN court? Or Italy? Or Russia? Or Japan? Or the US? There is the ICJ, which I have already addressed.
But, your own words, above, “...no consent of the original motion in any form including vote is required for secession...” necessarily imply that there is pretty much nothing Kosovo was required to do in order to secede. Ergo, it could just secede. That’s your argument! In your own words!
You cannot refute my earlier post, so you are branching off into the realm of the absurd.
Your Russian bosses want their money back; they are not getting their money’s worth out of you.
You perfectly understand what I mean. If the UN court decided what no legislation of the original country applies and no vote is required regarding Kosovo then the same applies to Crimea. There is nothing about ‘international recognition’ in the ruling, you made it all up. Ukrainian constitution doesn’t mean anything.
“You perfectly understand what I mean.”
I can only go by what you write, incoherent as it may be. And that is one of the things you are well-known for here on FR:
Incoherence. I can’t read your mind, nor can I divine your intent; I can only respond to what you actually say.
“If the UN court decided what no legislation of the original country applies and no vote is required regarding Kosovo then the same applies to Crimea.”
WRONG! The UN said there is nothing under international law that prohibits declarations of independence; thus, national law is operative and determinative on the issue. Serbia’s constitution was silent on secession; thus, there was nothing under Serbian law to prohibit secession and there was nothing under international to prohibit declarations of independence, so the matter falls to the people of the affected area to decide their self-determination.
The Ukrainian constitution DID address secession, and it required that ALL Ukrainian citizens get to vote on the matter, not just those in the affected area. Russia, as you probably already know, vehemently opposed that; and the separatist areas held their own referenda on secession, without all the citizens of Ukraine getting to vote on it, as the Ukrainian constitution required. Thus, the referenda were unconstitutional, and thus illegal.
Your reading is frivolous. Crimea was indeed an autonomous region and under even the Soviet constitution it had to decide on its exit from the USSR independently from Ukraine.
Regarding Yugoslavia, the constitution was amended in the 1980s and Kosovo didn’t have the rights of the republic.
Anyway, all that you have mentioned were the points of the Albanian side but the court decision wasn’t based on them. The main idea was that the right to self-determination is supreme to national processes. Both Yugoslavian and Ukrainian constitutions are meaningless.
“The main idea was that the right to self-determination is supreme to national processes. Both Yugoslavian and Ukrainian constitutions are meaningless.”
Well, you are now on record as being against the rule of law. That goes far towards explaining your positions here on FR.
“Regarding Yugoslavia, the constitution was amended in the 1980s and Kosovo didn’t have the rights of the republic.”
You do realize that the operative Serbian constitution was adopted in 2006, right?
Are you trying to tell me that the 2096 constitution was any different regarding secession or what it made any difference regarding the UN ruling?
I am not against the rule of law. My point is that you can’t apply law based on political expediency.
What is good for the goose, good for the gander.
“I am not against the rule of law.”
Sure you are. You said in an earlier post that at least two national constitutions were meaningless. You were adamant in saying that the Ukrainian constitution was meaningless. You are selective in your acceptance of the rule of law: If it goes your way, the law is valid; if it doesn’t the law is meaningless. Sorry, but laws don’t work that way. Therefore, you are opposed to the rule of law.
Your mind is twisted. It is not a rule of law when the same rule is applied in the opposite way based on political expedience.
If that is a rule of law, then I am against it.
“Your mind is twisted. It is not a rule of law when the same rule is applied in the opposite way based on political expedience. If that is a rule of law, then I am against it.”
I don’t think you understand what is meant by “rule of law.”
Rule of law means that power is subject to and limited by the law; the power of man and of government are held in check by the law. In a temporal sense, the law is supreme.
Yep, the law it supreme when it fits you, and not supreme when I need it, I got it.
Your rants are quite detached from the original toic, where the Serbian law should be ignored for the sake of Albanian self-derermination, but not the Ukrainian law for Crimeans.
“Your rants are quite detached from the original toic, where the Serbian law should be ignored for the sake of Albanian self-derermination, but not the Ukrainian law for Crimeans.”
No rants from me; just laying out the facts in a logical manner so even semi-literates can follow.
How is the Serbian law being ignored, when the Serbian constitution is SILENT on the issue of secession? But, the Ukrainian constitution DOES address it?
You can wax indignant and cry Foul! till the cows come home, but your rants are not going to change the facts. You don’t like the facts; I get that. But there comes a time when you have to accept reality, and realize you can’t change it, and go on with life.
Your points contradict the facts of the UN ruling explicitly stating that the right t self-determination of Kosovo is exercised regardless of anything related to Serbian jurisdicton.
“Your points contradict the facts of the UN ruling explicitly stating that the right t self-determination of Kosovo is exercised regardless of anything related to Serbian jurisdicton.”
No, it didn’t.
If you repeat your lies aillion times it won’t make them true.
“If you repeat your lies aillion times it won’t make them true.”
No lies. You just don’t like the facts.
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