Marine officer who blasted leaders over Afghanistan withdrawal now in the brig

Task & Purpose ^ | 9/27/21 | JEFF SCHOGOL

[wardaddy]

Pelham I give up.

Freepers weaned on Beck and Sean

Actually think Nazi Germany was socialist like the Soviet Union only more nationalist

Nazi Germany was a police state no question

But there was probably less public ownership of private production and capital in Nazi Germany than here today

They were the first country to institute large scale privatization of state utilities and resource and industrial entities the world had ever seen

Private ownership of farms and homes was ubiquitous

Nothing whatsoever like Stalin except gestapo and hegemony foreign policy

Why are people so gullible and uninformed here

Problem is right wing can go astray.....a little fact. ignored here

Which is worse ..this canard...or the all Dems are the same from Thomas Jefferson and Hickory to Maxine and AOC

Same cloth....such horseshit and ignorance

I swear this all started Beck and his stupid blackboards on Faux

[wardaddy]

👍

[Pelham]

There’s a number of conservative talking heads and “historians” who spout this stuff. I long ago realized that most of them never read history and certainly not political history. They like their ‘history’ neat & tidy and simplistic. Some of them are lucky to even know what century they themselves were born in.

Anyway, their listeners and/or readers trust them and pick up this addled version of history from them. One way to keep from being annoyed by the nonsense is to look for humor in it. Not always possible I admit.

[Pelham]

“Alright then. I am dumb. Reading is hard!!!”

You could have stopped there. You had that part right. Not a surprise to see you appealing to wiki for backup.

” but anything like Mises or actual documents are not likely to get trough to you.”

I’ve got several von Mises books in my library. Not fast reads but if economic history is your thing it’s not bad.

I’m curious which ones you enjoyed the most; “Human Action”, “Epistemological Problems of Economics”, “The Theory of Money and Credit” or “Socialism”. “Money and Credit” was probably my favorite since monetary and banking history are an interest of mine.

Since you’re appealing to von Mises to back up your assertion that Nazism was socialistic, you probably are aware that in the same piece he said the same thing of WWII America.

I’m curious what “actual documents” you’ve been reading. I stick to reading George Mosse and Shirer since I don’t read German and both of them were contemporary to the events they wrote about.

“BTW, the dims were the slave holders”

As were George Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe in the years before Jackson and Van Buren founded the Democratic Party in 1828. So were Cotton Whigs. Maybe you should grok that a bit.

[wardaddy]

Yes

Talk radio is entertainment at best

Not a means to an end...it failed.

[Menes]

Well, if I am allowed to pipe in for a moment: while it is true that fascism stems from socialism and shares many features with it, both are not the same - though they differ more n theory than in practice.

On one hand, fascism did not confiscate private property, except of course from individuals whom it considered enemies (however, there was central economic planning in Germany, but how much of it was due to the arms race to WW2 - and how much for the betterment of the people - still remains open to debate, iirc).

On the other, socialism always peddled the tired old story of being beneficial for the supposed benefit of the people.
Reality looked very much different, so one could argue that fascists were at least not devious - or at least not in this regard...

However, I would like to warn you of Shirer’s book. I know it was a runaway success in its day, but he was a) not a professional historian and b) he indubitably was a writer with a clear Germanophobic agenda - he was, alas, heavily influenced by wartime propagandists, both American and British.

This link is to an interesting article by historian Gavriel Rosenfeld about Shirer’s work and contemporary reactions to it: https://marcuse.faculty.history.ucsb.edu/classes/201/articles/94RosenfeldShirerJCH.pdf

I think, in those days, historian Klaus Epstein gave the best and most succinct critique of Shirer’s book.
Sadly, Epstein died young. His death was a terrible loss to the study of history.

[wardaddy]

National Socialism

Has the same name accuracy issues as

German Democratic Republic

Democratic Republic of Vietnam

Democratic People’s Republic of Korea

Talk radio trying dishonestly in league with Jonah Goldberg types trying to purify these charges of anti Semitism and racism directed at any conservative sect have created this canard

Same one where Robert E Lee equals Liz Warren

“ see it’s in the name”

Now Rohm was a socialist originally which is where it originated and he tried to define the SA obviously from what they saw as Jewish Bolshevism

Now tell the truth

Who here knows nazis were grand privatizers of public industry

This is from memory

I didn’t google any of this so fire away

[Pelham]

“Who here knows nazis were grand privatizers of public industry. This is from memory”

Hitler indeed sold off two state owned industries to the private sector. That could be in Shirer’s Rise & Fall; or it could be in some economic history I read, I don’t recall where I read it offhand.

Hitler didn’t have any interest in the government taking over business. As long as they agreed to build war materiel he didn’t care who owned them.

The deal he struck with German industrialists early on is well known except to the ‘never read history crowd’ who keep insisting that Nazism was socialist because they heard Jonah or Beck or some other clown say it.

Hitler was about as socialist as a Roman Emperor, which may be how he saw himself. The “First Reich” after all was The Holy Roman Empire.

Von Mises did call Hitler’s regime socialist, but in the same passage he also calls WWII America socialist. Both countries were running war economies, command economies with massive government involvement. Hardly the same as the Soviet Union taking full ownership of the “means of production” and von Mises was well aware of the difference, even if those who like to quote him on this aren’t.

You’re right about Rohm being a real socialist, one of the very few in Nazi leadership. He was also a homosexual and Hitler regarded him as a potential rival, which got him killed in the night of the long knives circa 1934.

[Pelham]

Bias is a problem in any news account or history so we do have to keep that in mind. I’ll have to take a look at that Rosenfeld paper.

To me one of the virtues of Shirer is that he was able to interview people who had known Hitler since he was a youth. That history in the opening chapters doesn’t appear to suffer from bias, it looks like a simple accounting of his life.

Shirer began living in Germany in 1934 just after Hitler came into power; his Berlin Diary from 1934 to 1941 is a basis for his Rise and Fall.