Posted on 09/12/2015 6:28:24 PM PDT by hapnHal
I don’t see the 10 Commandments there. It is the Roman Numerals 1-10. There is evidence that it represents the Bill of Right.
Many claim that the Ten Commandments appear several places at the Supreme Court Building but the fact is nowhere at the Supreme Court does the TEXT of the Ten Commandments appear which to me it seems that they don’t place a lot of importance on them.
BTW also there is Mohamad carrying a Koran.
Doesn’t have anything to do with the First Amendment. It is a ruling by the Oklahoma Supreme Court based on the Oklahoma Constitution.
Since this ruling is in Oklahoma and based on the Oklahoma Constitution what happened in Texas has no bearing on it.
If Oklahomans want to have The Ten Commandments on state property they need to Amend the Oklahoma Constitution.
Next up - any phrase or sentence that can be found in the bible is banned from public grounds. Imagine the damage if some document/mural contained the words, “In the beginning”, etc.
Court Says, “We reject the very source of the foundational concept of Western Law”
Just say NO, like Obama does.
Moses? No connection to the Ten Commandments there?
There are depictions of many lawgivers. There is more prominence to the Ten Commandments whether written out in detail or not. You may hate that. But that is the way it is.
It was never meant to legislate a religion. Neither was there intent to banish religion from public life. It was about the foundation of our laws.
The point on this thread is about whether it is unconstitutional to depict them in a public place. Clearly it is not.
Common Sense by Thomas Paine: "But where says some is the king of America? I'll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal of Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among the people whose right it is. "
Yes, that is the same Thomas Paine that in later years wrote "The Age of Reason." At the time of his participation in forming the foundations for our government, he wrote the above. People can sometimes grow more cynical over time. You have to understand their thoughts at the historical time. If even a religious cynic like Thomas Paine saw our Government of laws as founded on the law of God, I do nee how you can argue that was not the intent of the Founders.
The Oklahoma Constitution clearly forbids it on state property. Whether it is historical or not it is clearly a religious symbol also. If Oklahomans want to have there they must amend the Oklahoma Constitution. This issue has zero to do with the First Amendment, only what it says in the Oklahoma Contsitution.
Personally it does not bother me much, but I am a believer in the rule of law. And there are also quit a few Christians in Oklahoma that feel the same way.
“No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.”
As far prominence at the Supreme Court, Moses appears on the back of the building and contrary to what some say the other law givers are not facing toward him but facing forward.
He also appears inside once with no particular prominence to the others.
There are two tablets also on the wall inside that many claim are the Ten Commandments, but the artist said the Bill of Rights. Also there is nothing that says the Roman Numerals on the door represent the Ten Commandments or the Bill of Rights so who can really say.
Bottom line the designer did not have any intention of giving Moses any prominence over any othe lawgiver, but only show a variety of lawgivers throughout history.
And I suppose you understand what Thomas Paine meant when he said “the word of God”. Deists at the time belived in natural law given to us by God by observing nature and not hearsay revealations from the Bible.
As Paine said in The Age of Reason
“ The Creation speaks a universal language, independent of human speech or human language, multiplied and various as they be. It is an ever-existing original, which every man can read. It cannot be forged; it cannot be counterfeited; it cannot be lost; it cannot be altered; it cannot be suppressed. It does not depend upon the will of man whether it shall be published or not; it publishes itself from one end of the earth to the other. It preaches to all nations and to all worlds; and this Word of God reveals to man all that is necessary for man to know of God.”
Thomas Paine
What religion do the 10 Commandments belong to? Judaism? Christianity? Even Islam acknowledges man’s accountability to God and that we live by a basic moral code based on the laws of nature and nature’s God. Posting the 10 Commandments imposes no theology on anyone. It forbids nor imposes religion. It is about law. About right and wrong and man’s obligation to his Maker and to his fellow man.
First, you are defining something Paine wrote in 1775 by something he wrote in 1794, 1795, and 1807. That is not the way to honestly interpret anything. Common Sense was a pamphlet that was very influential. How was it understood by those it influenced? His later views were hostile to the idea of miracles, a need to confess sin to priests and hostility toward the Church of England. It was not a rejection of the Ten Commandments, which he saw as part of natural law.
Why are those symbols of Moses and the 10 Commandments at the Supreme Court? Why the other law givers? It was not seen as imposing religion at that time. It should not be taken that way now.
Clearly displaying the Ten Commandments has brought you no faith. No religion. You are not in jail for your atheism. What law do you violate by seeing a monument?
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
I read those 4 as religious commandments and being religious define the monument as religious and therefor in conflict with the Oklahoma Constitution when on state property.
As I said earlier, if Oklaomans disagree with the Constitution they should take steps to amend it. That is how the law works and anything else is anarchy.
Well, have you ever heard of blue laws? They did not impose a theology or religion. Besides, which religion? Judaism or Christianity? Which denomination? No. What they did was offer respect for a culture that spent their Sundays in church. AND, it wasn’t Saturday. It was Sunday that blue laws applied to. So you can’t make a case that it imposed a religion. It gave room for accommodation the majority religion. The founders thought religion was IMPORTANT because it informed and supported freedom. Only a moral and religious people were fit for freedom in their view.
Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values. We are accountable to God and it is the Judeo-Christian God. That does not mean that our laws enforced a specific religion. Neither did they enforce no religion. Our Founders saw our laws as God positive but not soul saving. Theology was for churches and synagogues (and if so chosen, mosques or whatever). No one goes to jail for disbelieving in God. That does not take away the fact that our laws are God positive — about man’s obligation to God and his fellow man.
The Founders thought that a healthy conscience informed by man’s obligation to his God was a vital ingredient to a free republic and self government.
First I am not an atheist as an atheism is defined as not believing in God. I am a Deist like Thomas Paine was. We just don’t believe in the supernatural acts of God in the Bible or the second and third hand revelations of the word of God. We believe in God but our idea of the nature of God is different than yours.
You have the idea that Paine all of a sudden became a Deist in 1794. If you read the Age of Reason you will find that he had been planning to write about his thoughts on religion for some years and upon the threat of death he was under he decided it was time. Up till then he had been pretty busy with fighting for political liberty and probably revealing his religious thoughts would have detracted from that.
To more fully understand Paine I recommend the following videos
Thomas Paine the man whose words changed the world.
You are the one who does not understand. You are using Paine’s later publications to completely redefine how our America government was established and what the Founders of this nation said and meant. You are even twisting Paine’s later statements to serve your redefinition. You sound desperate. I do not see why you are so hostile to mere words on a plaque. They do not magically make you a Christian or a Jew.
Yes you are right the Age of Reason was not a rejection of the Ten Commandments.
“When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of the commandments from the hands of God, they were not obliged to believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so. The commandments carry no internal evidence of divinity with them; they contain some good moral precepts, such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver, or a legislator, could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural intervention.”
I am though here, have a good day
They are doing what all professional Christians do. Collecting money “in the name of gawd”
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