Posted on 03/16/2014 11:39:09 AM PDT by ScaniaBoy
Those reports prove the election was massively rigged by Putin’s Russian regime, because the demographics alone make such an election result quite impossible. The Ukrainians make up something on the order of more than 25 percent of the population and the Crimean Tatars more than 12 percent of the population. The ethnic Russians are fewer than 58 percent of the population. Many ethnic Russians in the Crimea were loyal to the Ukraine and wanted to have nothing to do with Putin’s autocratic Russian government. At the very most a fair election result would have seen no more than a 45 percent vote in favor of annexing to Russia, and a far more likely result would have been around 9 to 12 percent in favor of Russian annexation.
Another way of knowing with absolute certainty the voting was rigged and fraudulent is by looking at the ballots. The ballots presented the voter with only two choices. One choice was for the Crimea to declare independence from the Ukraine. The other choice was for the Crimea to declare independence from the Ukraine and request Russian to annex the Crimea to Russia. The faked vote chose to become annexed to Russia. Nowhere on the ballot was there any option to vote in favor of remaining the territory of the Ukraine.
Those reports prove the election was massively rigged by Putin’s Russian regime, because the demographics alone make such an election result quite impossible. The Ukrainians make up something on the order of more than 25 percent of the population and the Crimean Tatars more than 12 percent of the population. The ethnic Russians are fewer than 58 percent of the population. Many ethnic Russians in the Crimea were loyal to the Ukraine and wanted to have nothing to do with Putin’s autocratic Russian government. At the very most a fair election result would have seen no more than a 45 percent vote in favor of annexing to Russia, and a far more likely result would have been around 9 to 12 percent in favor of Russian annexation.
Another way of knowing with absolute certainty the voting was rigged and fraudulent is by looking at the ballots. The ballots presented the voter with only two choices. One choice was for the Crimea to declare independence from the Ukraine. The other choice was for the Crimea to declare independence from the Ukraine and request Russian to annex the Crimea to Russia. The faked vote chose to become annexed to Russia. Nowhere on the ballot was there any option to vote in favor of remaining the territory of the Ukraine.
See posts #32 and 33.
“They had a choice to stay with Ukraine.”
No, there was no choice in the ballot that permitted the Crimea to remain with the Ukraine. This vote was completely rigged by Putin’s Russian regime as evidenced by the impossibility of the voting results, the truckloads of premarked ballots, the voting results in previous elections, and the demographics of the Crimea.
You have a point given the demographics, but the voting results and especially the polls regarding the EU Accession Treaty vs the Eastern Customs Union have pointed to similar results - ie more than 80% pro-Russia. Premarked ballots? Everything is possible, but some evidence, please.
From an earlier post:
Self-determination is a universal principle. But any referendum done at the point of a gun is illegitimate.
So let's look at the previous referendums that Crimea has had to get an idea of just how pro-Russian they really are.
Crimea held a referendum in January 1991 to effectively separate themselves from the collapsing USSR with 94% of the vote.
Crimea held another referendum declaring themselves an autonomous republic of Ukraine in December 1991 with 54% of the vote , officially separating themselves from the USSR and joining Ukraine.
The rest of Ukraine voted for independence with 90% of the vote.
It was the closest vote in the entire Ukraine, with a bare majority favoring joining Ukraine, but it WAS a majority. Keep in mind also that at this time most of the Tatars that were to return later had not arrived yet, and any legitimate referendum today would include their votes.
The other option offered broader autonomy within Ukraine. There very few takers for it.
It might have had a somewhat higher result had Ukrainian and Tatar voters shown up today.
But among ethnic Russians, it was as near to unanimity as one can get - in voting to rejoin Russia.
Crimea was part of the Ukraine, there was no option to remain so.
That is like Texas being overran by Mexico and the Texas Mexicans holding a vote to become an independent Mexican state, or become part of Mexico.
Bogus election with only one choice.
I posted this on another thread, but they would have won the vote count without inflating the outcome. Life was never good in the Ukraine (it is poor country). The Russians promised a big leap in pension (almost double), retirement age reduction (60 years for men, 55 for women), nobody in their current jobs to be fired if doing satisfactory work, everyone gets Russian passports, better military pension if switching sides (three times greater), higher pay for the military, generous housing allowances for military, gas 50% cheaper, etc... etc...
The area’s filled with Russians. This isn’t a surprise.
“You have a point given the demographics, but the voting results and especially the polls regarding the EU Accession Treaty vs the Eastern Customs Union have pointed to similar results - ie more than 80% pro-Russia.”
The crimea was the one district most heavily tilted in favor of Russia during the 1994 vote for independence with 46 percent in favor of remaining with Russia. The vote to be in a customs union with Russia could very well be expected to heavily favor Russia over the EU in the Crimea for practical economic reasons in addition to the cultural reasons. But, a vote for political subordination to Russia is a very different subject altogether. At most, the enthinic Russians in the Crimea have typically favored remaining autonokous from Russia and the Ukraine, but especially from Russia due to their bad experiences under the Soviet regime. Even a ballot lacking an option to vote in favor of remaining with the Ukraine should have resulted in not approving annexation by Russia, because the ethnic Russians of the Crimea have valued their internal political autonomy and the economic advantages such a position offered them in determining their own futures.
“Premarked ballots? Everything is possible, but some evidence, please.”
I don’t recall where I saw the reports, there have been such a blizzard of them in the last couple of days. As best i can recall at the moment, there were one or more threads on FR pointing to news reports about it, and a YouTube video in which someone held up one of the ballots to the camera so you could see how it was premarked from a truckload of boxes of ballots before the day of the voting.
Ironically, Reagan supported the IMF.
PS The IMF has already demanded that Ukraine stops subsidizing the prize of gas to its citizens. Otherwise no loan. They are going to love it. Russia was offering $15 bn with no preconditions except of course that Ukraine stayed out of EU and NATO: You pick you choice...
The EC is offering 15 bn too and their offer does not include the preconditions that you state.
Those preconditions are for an additional loan from the IMF.
FWIW, some evidence...
Sorry but those of us in Kansas, Nebraska and Iowa (America's breadbasket) don't call ourselves rednecks. That's a southern thing.
“I posted this on another thread, but they would have won the vote count without inflating the outcome.”
If that were true, which it isn’t in its conclusion, then the Russians needlessly faked the referendum. the referendum was faked. The ballots for the referendum offered no option to make such a choice in favor of the Ukraine. Thereby the vote was rigged on the face of the ballot before you even begin to observe how the premarked ballots rigged the election, the opponents were excluded from the voting, and the vote count was rigged.
Obama has called a news conference tomorrow,he wants to announce a referendum on the United States joining Russia.
I said they inflated the vote, but they convinced enough of the people in Crimea to get the majority easily. The conditions were terrible and the populace improvised in the Ukraine. The vote was a foregone conclusion without cheating.
“The conditions were terrible and the populace improvised in the Ukraine. The vote was a foregone conclusion without cheating.”
Even if what you say there were true, and it is not, the fact remains Russia faked and cheated on the referendum. You can persist all you want with the false propaganda, but the fact remains the referendum was unlawful under international law, fraudulent in its methods, fraudulent in its choice of voting options, and fraudulent in its results. Your efforts to deny the Russian vote fraud only serve to destroy your own credibility and raise serious questions about your motivations in supporting such crudely false prpaganda.
Then, there's that Russian "culture". And I'm not referring to Pushkin and Dostoyevskiy. It's the language common Russian uses, full of vulgarities, vodka, the hostile and aggressive way of looking at life, the contempt towards other nationalities, Ukrainians included, and so on. (Actually, it's not even 'Ukrainians', but more offensive khokhly which is being used more often)
So, it is like Mexicans in US, except if Mexicans did not want stay and once they get their wages, they went back to their country.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.