Ill-fated UPS jet was on autopilot seconds before crash

Yahoo ^ | 08/17/13 | Verma Gates

[DuncanWaring]

Not quite.

It was an A320, not an A300.

The real problem was that the engines got too slow, the pilots were late in pushing the throttles up, and the engines couldn't be quickly accelerated to takeoff/climb power (think of trying to go uphill in a car with a manual transmission in third gear at 20 mph).

The flight controls generally behaved, by my reading of the story, in a fairly reasonable manner.

Air France Flight 296

[IndianChief]

Years ago, before the A-300 received its airworthiness approval one flew into the trees, on autopilot, at the end of a runway in France. Completely over flew the runway and the auto pilot would not relinquish controls to the pilots. That crash was also fatal. This sounds like AP software failure too.

That was the A320 , not the A300.

The A320 is Fly-By-Wire not the A300, the FBW software glitch caused the crash in France.

[montanajoe]

“Asian pilots?”

Don't know but at this point of time I fly Asian airlines as a matter of course.

As with everything else America has ceded civil aviation to everyone but an American carrier..

[RckyRaCoCo]

Like...how many seconds?

I know a CAT-III approach it ain't, but cannot the FMC be setup for a profile decent(without glideslope)to the final approach fix(BASKN/4.7nm from MAP)...and on this(LOC RWY 18)approach IMTOY(1380/2NM from MAP)?

At 2nm out and final approach speed...what's that take...about 70-80 seconds?

Whats the rules for this approach?

[dalereed]

I never trust auto pilot on final, things can happen too quickly.

[montanajoe]

"Sooo sad when UPS jet goes DOWNS!" Another FR idiot heard from..

[BwanaNdege]

I’ve seen the density altitude at Pensacola, FL calculated at 3000 feet. P’cola is on the Gulf... just a little above Sea Level.

Play around with this calculator to see for yourself.

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm

[Cvengr]

I can hardly wait until Detroit sells us cars with AutoDrive!

[ProtectOurFreedom]

AutoDrive by Google. Do not be worried.

[Celtic Conservative]

The comedian Ron White once related a story about the flight he was on that lost an engine and had to turn back. A fellow passenger asked "how far can this plane go on one engine?" to which Ron replied "all the way to the crash site, which is convenient if you think about it".

CC

[Celtic Conservative]

So we're back to "if it ain't Boeing I ain't going"?

CC

[ltc8k6]

It was 10 years old and relatively low hours, as is usual with cargo planes.

You would normally turn the A/P off with this type of landing, iirc.

No autoland at this airport. PAPI was determining the glide slope.

[ltc8k6]

http://avherald.com/h?article=466d969f

NTSB hasn’t found any aircraft faults so far.

[ltc8k6]

Runway has GPS approach but it looks like the flight was using the Localizer approach and PAPI.

[Yosemitest]

PROBLEM: Weather Reporting Equipment Not Reliable.

Take a look at what a lot of FAA and some military sites are using now to reduce manning cost.

Automatic Weather Observation Systems.

One of the biggest problems with this system is the Ceilometer.
Its purpose is to determine cloud base height.
But it's not movable, where the older manned system, the weather technician could rotate the radar to a heading and then roll the instrument up from ground level, looking out many miles, to any angle up to 90 degrees and determine cloud height for clouds several miles away from the airport, and report them.
The automated system has to wait until the clouds are overhead to measure them, and doesn't "see" them as they approach.
It's very dangerous to all who depend upon the accuracy of the weather information for the airports they are used at.

You can also look at All Weather Inc’s Automated Weather Observing System (AWOS), but they're not any better.
These systems are dangerous and they're getting people killed!
You just cannot replace a human being using human logic and doing the job.

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

Thank you for posting those.I never tire of those.LOL

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

Yes indeed.Do you know the difference between a McCullough chainsaw and an A-300?

[Bryan24]

“Do you know the difference between a McCullough chainsaw and an A-300?”

One of them uses a chain to cut through trees....

[Wings-n-Wind]

LESS THAN OPTIMAL CHOICES BY THIS CREW:

(a) Selecting an RNAV (GPS) Non precision approach with a steeper non-standard angle of descent (3.24 degs inside the MDA)--

(b) To the shortest runway: RWY 18 is 7099' vs. RWY 24 is 10801'

(c) At a designated "special airport" (due to surrounding terrain)

(d) With high approach minimums 600' 1 & 1/2 miles
... and no approach lights!

(e) In the wee dark hours (crew duty period unknown)

(f) QUITE LIKELY: bending the rules (and below approach minimums!)
Now we know that the AFCS was engaged below the MDA (minimum descent altitude)

************

MUCH BETTER SET-UP FOR A BIG JET IN THE DARK HOURS OF THE MORNING...

(a) Select/request ILS RWY 24 --
Fully coupled-autopilot approach to an actual external ILS system --
(...instead of internal computer magic based on GPS data for RWY 18)...

(b)To the longest runway...nearly 11,000 long...

(c) Still a designated "special airport" -- and coupled approach minimums reflect those slightly higher minimums...

(d) Lower approach minimums: 300' and 3/4 mile
Added bonus... RWY 24 has a full approach light system
(RWY 18 does NOT HAVE approach lights... REIL only)

(e) RWY 24 ILS has a more common (shallow) glide slope angle for coupled approaches...

(f) For a fully coupled ILS approach -- autopilot use i approved all the way to approach minimums-- and for a missed approach... huge advantage.

***********

TRUE STORY:

The grizzled, chicken-neck, gravel-voiced captain leaned back to call for the approach checklist late one night...
... after a particularly thorough briefing for descent and instrument arrival into LAX
(nonstop from the east coast)

He said to the young flight engineer...

Son... if you wanna win every time...
....stack the deck in your favor...
...every time.

When the young engineer passed thru the right seat for a few ears...
... and finally won his captain's stripes & scrambled eggs...

He used that advice on every flight...

*************

Just my $.02...

Truly sorry these pilots died in the crash...

[Bryan24]

This will end up being pilot error. You don’t fly a functioning plane into the ground without it being pilot error.