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New Fossil Book Won't Showcase Obvious Catastrophe (article)
Institute for Creation Research ^ | June 17, 2013 | Brian Thomas

Posted on 06/20/2013 6:51:51 AM PDT by fishtank

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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
“... what we call “families.” I'm just exploring that idea further....”

in fairness, prehistoric taxology is difficult at best!

...How many--how many "kinds" are represented among the cat family? Which ones go in which kind? How do you know?.."

no one know s how many, it is a best guess. But I start with the premise God is right and tells the truth.

But if you seriously want to know I recommend; noah's ark feasibility study john woodmorappe

281 posted on 06/24/2013 9:47:47 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
“...all? So that would require multiple pairs of “cat” kinds on the Ark, one for each group of related species. ...”

There are some cat species that may not share certain characteristics (genetics), so two or three (+) kinds of cats may have been on ark. (these may have been younger) some cat species may not have survive the flood at all. since God directed the animals to come to Noah, to be saved.

also, by some evolutions (humanist)admissions....

“.....I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level—preschool, day care, or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and new—the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all of its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism (Dunphy, 1983, 43[1]:26).
....”

Dunphy, J. (1983), “A Religion for a New Age,” The Humanist, 43[1]:26, January-February.

282 posted on 06/24/2013 12:55:35 PM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom
There are some cat species that may not share certain characteristics (genetics), so two or three (+) kinds of cats may have been on ark.

Okay. But do you agree that however many kinds of cats were on the ark, if the number is smaller than the number of extant cat species, that means multiple cat species have developed from a single example of the cat kind? Which means, in other words, that multiple species share a common ancestor?

also, by some evolutions (humanist)admissions....

There's loonies in every group.

283 posted on 06/24/2013 2:36:28 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: kimtom; Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
Some cat species may not have survive the flood at all. since God directed the animals to come to Noah, to be saved.

Excellent point! Some Creatures were divinely directed to the Ark; Others didn't make the cut. Whatever The Creator's reasons were are good enough for me...

Pre-Flood cats that didn't survive:

http://alltheworldanimals.blogspot.com/2011/12/10-giant-prehistoric-cats.html

284 posted on 06/24/2013 5:38:16 PM PDT by USS Johnston (Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be bought at the price of chains & slavery? - Patrick Henry)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
Earlier, you wrote that "Creatures simply cannot nor have not remade themselves into another species." How did we get lions and domestic shorthairs from a single pair of cats, then?

Who claimed neither were on the ark at the same time?

Just FYI, standard theory has it taking millions of years to get from the earliest canids to wolves...

Now hold on, Speedy -- "standard theory" as defined by WHOM?? FWI, "standard theory" is JUST theory and not "fact." And why the arbitrary "millions of years"?

Please continue...

...then up to 30+ thousand years to get from wolves to all current breeds of dogs.

Again -- here you are presuming again. Lemme guess: "Standard Theory"?? Dogs and wolves ARE very similar in many respects BUT different animals. Btw -- NO "evolution" involved. Do you like seafood? FWIW did you know Flounder is different than Sole? Who "evolved" from who? And how long did IT take? They're both "flatfish" and have different characteristics, aka different animals.

yet you want to get from one pair of Felidae to dozens of species (not to mention breeds) of cats in only 4,000 years! That's evolution at a rate no evolutionist would dare suggest.

WHO claimed a mere single pair of house-cats were brought aboard the Ark? Secondly, the interbreeding of cats does NOT constitute "evolution." Thirdly, the selective domestic breeding of some "different cats and dogs" have been created within mere hundreds of years.

285 posted on 06/24/2013 6:00:18 PM PDT by USS Johnston (Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be bought at the price of chains & slavery? - Patrick Henry)
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To: USS Johnston
Pre-Flood cats that didn't survive:

I haven't been talking about pre-Flood cats, just about the 37 species that are around now.

286 posted on 06/24/2013 6:49:53 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: USS Johnston; kimtom
Who claimed neither were on the ark at the same time?

Kimtom posted the suggestion that there weren't two of every cat, just two of the cat "kind." That has since been revised to the suggestion that there may have been two or three or more kinds. I just chose lions and domestic shorthairs as examples. Maybe those were two of the kinds on the Ark, I don't know and it doesn't matter. The point is, if there were fewer cat kinds on the Ark than there are species today, all the species we have today came from those [however many] kinds, sorta by definition, right?

Now hold on, Speedy -- "standard theory" as defined by WHOM?? FWI, "standard theory" is JUST theory and not "fact." And why the arbitrary "millions of years"?

Um, standard theory as defined by scientists, who else? And the millions of years is hardly arbitrary, it's based on analysis of fossils, the rocks they're found in, DNA, and lots of other factors. Are you arguing that standard scientific theory doesn't say it took millions of years? Millions, hundreds of thousands, I don't care: the point is, scientists say it took evolution a looong time to accomplish something that those who would posit a single cat kind on the Ark say took only 4,000 years.

Lemme guess: "Standard Theory"??

Uh, yeah, it's the same sentence as before, and "standard theory" is still the subject. No guessing required.

Dogs and wolves ARE very similar in many respects BUT different animals. Btw -- NO "evolution" involved. Do you like seafood? FWIW did you know Flounder is different than Sole?

What is your point? I know they're different animals. Are you saying dogs didn't come from wolves?

Secondly, the interbreeding of cats does NOT constitute "evolution."

I've been avoiding the word "evolution," because I know some people have a kneejerk reaction to it. I'm just exploring the implications of the Ark story. Either all 37 extant species of cats were represented on the Ark, or some lower number of "kinds" were. If the latter, then it necessarily follows that multiple species descended from the same common ancestor. (That is, unless you want to regroup the 37 species recognized by science into larger groups, by kind and shared ancestor. In which case I'll ask you how you know which ones go together.) And that kind of negates the claim that there's some kind of "species barrier" that organisms can't cross.

Like I said, these just seem to me to be the necessary implications of the Ark story as presented.

287 posted on 06/24/2013 7:14:24 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: USS Johnston
So when did predation recommence? Indeed, what did any of the creatures eat once they left the ark given that the entire land surface was salty mud and the food chain would have to start from zero?

If, as you claim, the continents relocated themselves by thousands of kilometers after the flood waters receded in a very short period of time, how did both marine and terrestial life survive the unimaginable vulcanism, earthquakes, tsunamis and atmosphere changing gases?

288 posted on 06/25/2013 3:30:31 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: kimtom

What is it about the water barrier that alllowed them to get to their destination but doesn’t allow a return trip?


289 posted on 06/25/2013 3:32:35 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

“...kind of “species barrier” that organisms can’t cross..”

a lot of words.....

your point???


290 posted on 06/25/2013 4:28:45 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Natufian

“...What is it about the water barrier that alllowed them to get to their destination but doesn’t allow a return trip?...”

I will wait for a sincere question


291 posted on 06/25/2013 4:29:51 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

“..Which means, in other words, that multiple species share a common ancestor?...”

yes, having a common ancestor to which they descended is not example of evolution, but the variety of encoded genetics within each animal (that is already there...case: dog varieties)

“Darrell Huff correctly observed: “People can be wrong in the mass, just as they can individually” (1959, p. 122). If something is true, stating it a million times does not make it any truer. Similarly, if something is false, stating it a million times does not make it true. And the prestige of a position’s advocates has nothing to do with whether or not the fact is true or false. It is incorrect (to use one example) to suggest that because a Nobel laureate states something it is true by definition. Were that the case, when Nobel laureate W.B. Shockley suggested that highly intelligent women be artificially inseminated using spermatozoa from Nobel Prize winners to produce superintelligent offspring, we should have taken him up on his suggestion. Of course, such an idea was based on nothing more than the narcissistic dreamings of an over-inflated ego. As Taylor has commented: “Status in the field of science is no guarantee of the truth” (1984, p. 226). Factual knowledge is not based on: (a) the number of people supporting the claim; or (b) the importance of the one(s) making that claim.”

Huff, Darrell (1959), How to Take a Chance (New York: W.W. Norton).
Taylor, Ian (1984), In the Minds of Men (Toronto, Canada: TFE Publishing).
Bert Thompson, Ph.D.-Apologetics Press,


292 posted on 06/25/2013 4:45:24 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Natufian

“... get to their destination but doesn’t allow a return trip?..”

land bridges that disappear..........


293 posted on 06/25/2013 4:46:39 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

“...if there were fewer cat kinds on the Ark than there are species today, all the species we have today came from those [however many] kinds, sorta by definition, right?....”

According to Daniel Criswell, the definition of species is different for many scientists and is not a standardized term. Many scientists define species as a population of animals that are reproductively isolated from other similar species. Reproductive isolation can occur in a number of ways and result in speciation from one kind of animal through events that isolate one variation (species) from another. Many of these isolation events have been identified and are described as behavioral isolation, ecological isolation, and geographical isolation, to name a few.

Geographical isolation is one of the best understood events and likely the most common. Geographical isolation results when two variations of the same kind of animal migrate and become separated by a geographical barrier preventing the two animal variations (species) from having contact and interbreeding. Once completely separated, the two populations of animals possess variations of some genes, resulting in two “species” that differ in appearance (color, size, etc.) and behavior.

Criswell, D. 2009. Speciation and the Animals on the Ark. Acts & Facts. 38 (4): 10.


294 posted on 06/25/2013 5:45:27 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

What’s the evidence for a land bridge between the Americas and Europe that has sunk beneath the oceans in the last 4,000 years?


295 posted on 06/25/2013 7:56:29 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: Natufian

“...evidence for a land bridge..”

example below (water levels changed globally) in response, however I reject long dates, because they don’t have to be long ago...radio-carbon dating is so full of fallacy. (contaminated sampling as with radio-isotope)

“...The sharing of animal and plant species between Australia-New Guinea and nearby Indonesian islands is another consequence of the early land bridges, which closed when sea levels rose with the end of the last glacial period. The sea level stabilized to near its present levels about 6000 years ago, flooding the land bridge between Australia and New Guinea.”
“”Archaeological evidence indicates human habitation at the upper Swan River, Western Australia by about 40,000 years ago. Tasmania, which was connected to the continent by a land bridge, was inhabited at least 30,000 years ago...”

Wade, Nicholas (8 May 2007). “From DNA Analysis, Clues to a Single Australian Migration”. The New York Times.

But evolutionist are terrible in estimating time, because of the methods use. So the land bridge would have disappeared after the last “supposed ice age”.


296 posted on 06/25/2013 9:11:03 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom
a lot of words.....

Eight words is a lot of words? I can see why you're having trouble following my point.

your point???

The assertion has been made (specifically by the other person I addressed that last post to, but not only by him) that species are fixed and unchangeable--that one species cannot possibly develop change into another. On the other hand, a scenario has been proposed by which 37 species of cats have developed from a much smaller "cat-kind" sample on the Ark. If the second thing happened, then the first assertion is false. Clear?

297 posted on 06/25/2013 10:06:54 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: kimtom
having a common ancestor to which they descended is not example of evolution, but the variety of encoded genetics within each animal (that is already there...case: dog varieties)

How do you know this? Has anyone found the genetic code already present in a wolf that can create a chihuahua? This isn't the first time I've heard this particular creationist claim, and it's always seemed to me that creation scientists should be working to isolate all that pre-existing genetic code, if only to see what new dog varieties might already be encoded for. As far as I know, no one's pursuing that tack. By contrast, scientists have found the differences in genetic code that determine, say, whether a dog is in a large breed or a small breed. That actually fits the evolution model quite well.

Regarding your quote: the idea that most people can be wrong is always a good thing to keep in mind, but it's in no way an argument that you're right. It's the reason scientists keep checking and rechecking the theory, trying to poke holes in it.

298 posted on 06/25/2013 10:23:34 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

By contrast, scientists have found the differences in genetic code that determine, say, whether a dog is in a large breed or a small breed. That actually fits the evolution model quite well.


So exactly where does all the genetic information come from in your evolution model? It exists prior to large dogs and small dogs. When old Mendal worked with peas he didn’t make new information, he sorted out some existing information.

I am more of a believer in devolution where we are losing genetic information. Can you even imagine the genetic information “programed” in earlier times we have lost. Some will argue with me and say it is not lost, only hidden. They might be right.

Do you get up in the morning look at your computer and say, Man, I’m glad that computer evolved for me. Get a thinking cap.


299 posted on 06/25/2013 10:54:49 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

yawn.......

thanks,

the last word is yours


300 posted on 06/25/2013 10:58:02 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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