Posted on 05/31/2013 4:58:43 PM PDT by Sopater
Free Republic is a pro-life website you know. Most FReepers value the life you are mocking.
Why don’t you take your pro-abort stand and go over to DU where you belong?
I detest idiots.
I don’t support or oppose anything on this thread. The article it’s self is nothing but hyperbolic garbage, just as the opposition to irradiated meat, GMO, Oil drilling, Fracking, Banks, Republicans, Guns, bullets, long clips, big pharma, big oil, circuses, black helicopters, CIA darts, google glasses, whatever...
When I see something like that it draws me in like fly paper.
So no, already said that I and anyone in my extended family is way beyond needing vaccines...I don’t even take flu shots..so I don’t care about the topic, I do care about the blind opposition to it because it makes no sense to me. I see it as dangerous populist dogma designed by a puppet master pulling strings.
It’s ignorance of the kind that got Obama elected. The country is infected with it.
You are weasel.....I mam the trap.
slap!
We label it as immoral to make "discarded human tissue".
You are nothing but a pro-death obot.
IBTZ.
Idiots can’t read apparently....But I knew that already...
Oh here we go....Calvary!
OK...let’s get it on...give me something sensible and without dripping hateful detestable sneers.
But you can’t do that can you...
You are incapable of rational thought.
You disgust me.
What a big man.........
No wonder your marriage didn’t make it.
What a good argument for abortion. It’s for “the children”. Makes perfect sense to a liberal. Where does that put you?
Push that disgusting godless liberal crap on FR, we’ll be parting company. NO MORE!!
That was my first one to a teenager you wanted to get away from daddy. She was 17, and I should never have attempted it.
Current wife for 35 years.
See how wrong you are? Don’t you ever wonder why?
Jim, I guess you don’t remember me...met a few times in Arkansas some ten years ago.
Hope your well, but these people attacked me, and as you may remember, I am no libtard. And I don’t run.
If that’s how you feel however, I will gladly exit. It’s your forum.
We are 100% pro-life on FR. None of the abortionist agenda is welcome here.
You are weasel.....I mam the trap.
What are you talking about? I used the word “weasel” because it aptly described your non-answer.
So anyone who doesn’t adhere precisely to your list is irrational, an idiot and only worth insulting, with no discussion.
You’re sort of a cariacture of an Evil Republican.
BTW, I wonder what “google glasses” are and what they have to do with using aborted babies’ tissue in vaccines. Or anything else in your long laundry list of things that it is wrong to disagree with, in the little world of your mind.
Actually you are wrong Cold Heat; vaccines are not produced from discarded embryos from fertility clinics nor do as some have claimed, do vaccines contain fetal tissues. And not all vaccines are grown in the human cell lines and those that are grown in human cell lines, those cell lines came from two abortions that took place nearly 50 years ago.
Vaccines DO NOT Contain Fetal Tissue
Human Cell Strains in Vaccine Development
I am very much pro–life and I would very much like to see all vaccines, where ever possible, not grown in those two human cell lines that came as the result of those two abortions where ever more ethical alternatives are available. But it is a lie (or perhaps more of a lack of knowledge and understanding of the biology and science in immunology) to say that vaccinations require a steady supply of newly aborted babies in order to make them or that all vaccinations contain fetal tissues. Neither is factually true.
If not one abortion ever took place after the two that are used in developing the MRC-5 cell line (from an abortion that was performed in September, 1966) or the WI-38 cell line (from an abortion that was performed in July, 1962) the only two cell lines used in growing some vaccines, it would have made no difference in that no further abortions were or are necessary in order to grow those vaccines that use those two self promulgating cell lines. Those abortions took place and some 50 years later there is nothing we can do about that now, but although we can take a stand that abortion is morally and ethically wrong and that those abortions and no others should have ever taken place, we can perhaps see that those babies deaths were not in vain.
Children of God for Life undoubtedly have the best of intentions and they certainly have their heart in the right place but even if their intentions are good, they are promulgating some very bad and unscientific information. By scaring parents from getting their children immunized against dangerous, debilitating but yet very preventable diseases, they put many children at risk for unnecessary death or lifelong disability. It should also be mentioned that Measles is making a comeback because of the anti-vaccination crowd, whatever their intention and that Measles can and does cause spontaneous abortions and severe birth defects even in mothers who had either had Measles or had been vaccinated against it because the fetus, inutero has no defense against it. There are many other preventable and potentially deadly diseases that we have vaccinations for that are making a comeback because of third world unvaccinated populations streaming across our unprotected boarders and also in large part because of the anti-vaccination folks, some of them pro-lifers and some of them the Jenny McCarthy liberal types.
I am not and in no way trying to rationalize and I am in no way promoting abortion as a good thing nor am I defending the comments made by Cold Heat some of which I find odd if not offensive. And abortion is something that I think is the murder of an innocent human. But I am trying to promote the truth and facts as they are.
But if you get your children or yourself immunized against Measles, Mumps, Rubella, the MMR vaccine, or the Chicken Pox vaccine or any other vaccine, you are not and in no way contributing to or promoting further abortions and you may very well be saving your child from an unnecessary early death or helping to prevent the spread of those diseases from infecting the more vulnerable who are either too young to be vaccinated or have immune systems that make vaccinations not of use to them, or can’t get them or those who get vaccinated but haven’t had enough time to build up the necessary immunity.
I am pleading for some knowledge and education and some common sense in this discussion. I think, sadly that I am probably hoping for too much. Too many people have made up their minds and think/believe absent actual facts at hand that all vaccinations = aborted babies. Sadly some of the same people who grieve the unnecessary death of the unborn, seem to turn a blind eye to the unnecessary deaths of children who die unnecessarily from very preventable diseases.
Very well-written. Thank you.
I’d like to clarify that I never thought or meant to insinuate that ongoing abortions are required for vaccine production; I’ve been aware for quite some time of the two cell lines you mention, and that those two abortions are the only ones involved in vaccines.
However, we do know from the Senomyx (spelling?) debacle that aborted babies are used for R&D in various products, and that there is indeed a market for fetal “parts”. We must all take a stand against such evil.
Gee. I bet you support the use of “research” by doctors like Mengele, too.
Thanks for the ping, MD Expat.
This entire article is full of inaccuracies, if not outright lies. I am disappointed that a publication calling itself “A Conservative Newspaper Promoting, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” would publish such misleading and dangerous bilge.
Yes, it is true that many vaccines are produced using the aborted fetal cell lines. And it is highly unfortunate that those children (one little boy and one little girl) had to die in that brutal manner. However, no other children have to die to continue to use those cells, because the cell lines, like all established cell lines, are essentially immortal. There are, in fact, many other cell lines that would work equally well for the production of vaccine viruses. MDCK (dog cells) and Vero (monkey cells) are commonly used for vaccine research and development.
Although I would encourage anyone who dislikes the use of fetal cells for vaccine production to write to the companies using them to express their displeasure, I should point out that changing to a morally acceptable cell line is not trivial. Even using the exact same virus, the company would essentially have to start almost at step one to establish a different cell line for production. All of the safety and efficacy studies would have to be repeated. This would take years and billions of dollars; the company would most likely lose any kind of patent protection by the time they receive FDA approval.
Companies are, however, cognizant of the fact that many people do find the use of fetal cell lines repugnant. (Yes, I have seen this explicitly stated in research publications.) Many new vaccines are being developed, and many companies are avoiding the use of fetal cell lines and sticking to other, less morally objectionable, cell lines. So, while expressing these concerns to the companies currently using fetal cell lines won’t change any current vaccine growth practices, it will have an effect on future vaccines.
Now, as to rubella—this article was completely disingenuous about it. It points out that there were no cases of congenital rubella syndrome in 2004—without mentioning that the CDC declared the US rubella-free in 2004. (Rubella fact page: http://www.cdc.gov/features/rubella/ ) The US managed this through an extensive vaccination campaign. We still need the vaccine, because rubella still exists in other countries. International travel is so easy and convenient that infected people can carry a disease thousands of miles before they even show symptoms. Rubella is usually mild in children, but in adults can cause arthritis and even a potentially fatal encephalitis. It is devastating to babies—during a two year epidemic in the 1960s, ~11,000 babies died and another 20,000 had birth defects from rubella, in the US.
Another highly disingenuous part of the article is its description of vaccine side effects. Manufacturers are required to disclose *all* adverse events that occur during a clinical trial, whether it is related to the vaccine or not. Here is a severe adverse effect that I saw listed: “One patient did not complete the study due to death in a bicycle accident, which was not considered related to the study.” You don’t need a PhD to figure out that many of the adverse events listed in the package insert are clearly not related to the vaccine; you just need a bit of common sense. Just about any event that has the suffix “-itis” is caused by an infectious agent—which excludes the vaccine, since vaccines are sterile.
Here, I must take a moment to describe what a vaccine is, since many people do not seem to understand this part. A vaccine consists of a pathogenic bacteria or virus, or biological molecules extracted from those. In the case of bacteria, they are killed so they cannot cause infection. Viruses are killed, or are specially designed “attenuated” strains that cannot cause clinical disease. The biological molecules cannot cause disease, either. Since the processing of these pathogens to make vaccines renders them incapable of causing disease, I will call them “antigens.” These antigens are suspended in an inert buffer. Sometimes, preservatives are added to prevent microbial growth after manufacture—this is especially important in multi-dose vials, since the act of inserting a sterile needle into the vial can introduce microbes by momentarily breaking the vial’s seal. Adjuvants are sometimes used, because they act to amplify the effect of the antigen so that a lower dose can be used. Once introduced into the body, these antigens look like foreign invaders and the immune system reacts accordingly. After about two weeks, the immune system has learned what those invaders look like, so that when it encounters the real pathogen, it recognizes it and responds immediately. Even if you get sick, the illness is mild because your immune system was already trained to respond to it.
Now, back to vaccine adverse effects. Yes, vaccines do cause some adverse effects. Some of these are due to allergic reactions. Others are due to the antigen itself. Since the antigen comes directly from a pathogen, an adverse effect to the antigen would almost certainly result from exposure to that pathogen. And, in the case of pathogen exposure, the adverse effect would be much worse—because the pathogen replicates uncontrollably in the body, so the person is exposed to far more of the noxious agent.
This is a bit long already, but I just want to say one more thing, about the supposed search for new fetal cell lines. It is untrue that the cell lines in use since the 1960s have a lifespan equal to that of the “donor.” The reality is that cells can be preserved frozen in liquid nitrogen indefinitely. I’m not sure how manufacturers handle the cells, but I know that researchers typically grow several flasks of cells, then freeze dozens of vials for future use. When they start using cells from a vial, they keep count of the number of generations that occur since they thawed the vial. After a certain number of generations, they either analyze the cells to make sure they still have all of the expected properties, or they throw them away and thaw a new vial. I used to use cells for about 15 to 20 generations. I have *never* seen a cell line with a set life-span; they truly are immortal. Hela cells, in use since the early 1950s, are still alive and well all over the world—despite the death of their donor in 1951.
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