60 civilians killed as Syrian forces pound Homs

PakTribune ^ | Feb. 22, 2012

[GonzoGOP]

How do know the thousands killed are your enemy?

How do you know they are not? After three MB takeovers I think the burden of proof is on them. We know that the MB is involved, they make no bones about it. As for it being just opportunism, once is an accident, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.

Your answer to it is what? Let Assad slaughter whoever he wants to?

And what is yours? Send in US troops? Expend billions of dollars in smart munitions and jet fuel to install a government that in all reasonable probability will be an islamist state hostile to the US? It is all downside risk, almost no upside. If we do nothing what is the worst case. We may end up a hostile government there, but that is no worse off then today. If we do nothing all our boys come home and it doesn't cost us a thing. Limited upside possibility, but absolutely no downside risk.

[Owl558]

“Your answer to it is what? Let Assad slaughter whoever he wants to?”

I know I’m butting in, but GonzoGOP is correct, this has nothing to do with the United States. We have no interests in Syria to warrant intervention. Feeling bad for innocent civilians is natural, but such anger should be directed at those responsible, not as justification for sending someone else’s kids to war. Not there. Not this time. Blame Assad, not a lack of US intervention.

Anyone who feels strongly can go join the Free Syria opposition or donate $$, but leave our armed forces out of it. In case anyone hasn’t noticed, they’re engaged elsewhere.

[donozark]

British press now seems to be of the opinion the Assad Regime deliberately targeted the journalists. This may be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of NATO intervention. The brothers Assad may have gone a “bridge too far” on this one. The next 48-72 hours are critical...

[donozark]

Would add-Edith Bouvier, a French journalist is in critical condition in a makeshift hospital. Attempts to get to her are being made. France announced it is holding Syria responsible. Whatever that means in terms of response...

[GonzoGOP]

This may be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of NATO intervention. The brothers Assad may have gone a “bridge too far” on this one.

Not likely. "Colvin was killed by a rocket, along with award-winning French photographer Rémi Ochlik, while fleeing a building being shelled by the Syrian Army in Homs, Syria during the 2011–2012 Syrian uprising.having made her last broadcast on the evening of February 21, 2012, appearing on the BBC, CNN, ITN News and Channel4 via satellite phone. They had both entered Syria illegally."

It is that last line that is Assad's get out of jail free card. You are in a war zone illegally. At that point you take responsibility on yourself if you get dead. Unless France and Britain really want to get into a war, and they are kinda broke at the moment, this will just be another nasty letter incident. Britain literally emptied their magazines of smart munitions over Libya. They aren't up for another fight yet.

Only the US has the firepower to do much in that end of the world. And as explained earlier this just is not our fight. If the rebels want to buy some surplus weapons cash and carry I'm OK with that. Call up their Saudi sugar daddies and tell them to cut a check. But no troops, no credit.

[donozark]

Virtually everything done in the ME is "illegal" to one faction or another. The deliberate targeting of non-combatants is not legal.

Then again, neither is the tanker load of oil that Chavez just off loaded in Syria. Although he says it is.

If need be, Brits will use SAS/Omani SF as they did in Libya. France will use the French Foreign Legion, many of whom come from ME countries. Plausible deniability and all that. "Sheep-dipped" if necessary.

Not saying I am in favor of such. Merely saying this is what could happen. Next 72 hours or so are critical...

[Zhang Fei]

The majority of people in Egypt didn't claim to be MB, but the MB is taking over there.

75% of Egyptian voters chose Islamist parties. The parts of the 75% that did not choose the Muslim Brotherhood chose the Salafist party. If Egyptians aren't Islamists, I have to wonder what % would be required before we called them Islamists. Note a Pew survey showed that 90% of Egyptians agree with making apostasy a capital offence. The only American-style party in Egypt got 2% of the vote.

[Zhang Fei]

Feeling bad for innocent civilians is natural, but such anger should be directed at those responsible, not as justification for sending someone else’s kids to war. Not there. Not this time. Blame Assad, not a lack of US intervention.

We know from Western reporting on Israeli retaliation against Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas that our journos have a special affection for enemies of the West in general, and Sunnis and Islamists specifically. I wouldn't doubt that they're lying through their teeth.

[Zhang Fei]

Feeling bad for innocent civilians is natural, but such anger should be directed at those responsible, not as justification for sending someone else’s kids to war. Not there. Not this time. Blame Assad, not a lack of US intervention.

Actually, the Wahhabist scum are hoping that we'll pay to win the war for their Sunni brethren. The Saudis could spend tens of billions to do the job right, but why pay when Uncle Sam will do it for free?

[Zhang Fei]

Virtually everything done in the ME is "illegal" to one faction or another. The deliberate targeting of non-combatants is not legal.

It's hard to think of an instance where Sunnis have not targeted non-combatants, whereas the list of large-scale Sunni atrocities goes all the way back to Muhammad.

[Zhang Fei]

Do you seriously think you can drop a full scale artillery barrage, for a couple of weeks, on a city of a million people and kill 60?

You are right. In the early 80's, Assad pere battered Hama with tanks and artillery over the course of a month and killed 30,000.

[nuconvert]

“How do know the thousands killed are your enemy?”
“How do you know they are not?”
“As for it being just opportunism, once is an accident, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action.”

I call MB opportunists, because they didn’t start the protests. The young people, bloggers, people really wanting an end to the regime and a more democratic gov’t started the protests. The MB seizes the opportunity to get involved and they become part of the protests and eventually with leadership backing, they take it over. This is what has happened time & time again. The majority of those arrested, beaten & killed in the beginning, are not MB. Yes, some are killed, but Assad is attacking and shelling peoples’ homes indiscrimantely, so there again, it isn’t just MB being killed. He is killing people trying to flee with their families.

“Your answer to it is what? Let Assad slaughter whoever he wants to?”
“And what is yours? Send in US troops?”

No. I don’t want to send in troops. I want to demand that Assad stop the killing. If he doesn’t stop immediately, he’s a target for extermination without warning. Hit his palace, whatever. When he’s dead, his army will fall apart.

Allowing this genocide to go on, makes us look weak to the entire world, and encourages more of the same slaughter elsewhere, because the ruling gov’t knows that no one will step in to stop it.

It’s as shameful to sit by and watch this, as it was to sit and watch Rwanda.

[nuconvert]

“This may be the straw that broke the camels back in terms of NATO intervention. The brothers Assad may have gone a “bridge too far” on this one.”

Unfortunately, I doubt it.

This morning, the Russians & Iranians are telling us to stay out of it. They are calling for no foreign intervention... Ha - except them, of course.
And it looks like we are going to comply.

[donozark]

Obama/NATO may be looking for a pretext. In Grenada it was the students in peril that finally caused Reagan to jump in. In Panama, the beating of a Naval Officer and the rape of his wife that broke the camels back. In Iraq? WMD. In Libya? The counter-attack by Qadaffi forces east toward Benghazi and the vesting of the city with thoughts of annihilation of it's inhabitants.

Although the murder of 2 (maybe 3) journalists does not rise to the above incidents, we can only wonder what NATO is thinking. France has a long history with Syria. And if Assad gets away with this, will he be embolden to crush all resistance?

[nuconvert]

“Obama/NATO may be looking for a pretext.”

The targeting of journalists should be enough of one.
Maybe they’re waiting for the razing of a school filled with children?

“will he be embolden to crush all resistance? “

He’s already doing that

[donozark]

Certainly what he is doing is brutal, but not all out like his daddy did at Hama in the 80s. Baby Assad still have a large inventory of weaponry yet to be employed. Surprised they have not as yet used it, since the Russian envoy basically told Assad two weeks ago to git ‘er done!

[Owl558]

“I wouldn’t doubt that they’re lying through their teeth.”

I would not be surprised at all. I think that’s Gonzo’s point as well. “Sustained” artillery barrages like journalists are describing are incredibly destructive. I’d be curious to see a picture of the supposedly shelled out city.

[FreedomPoster]

If the MB takes over it is quite likely the substantial Christian minority in Syria will be brutalized and murdered as the Copts are now being brutalized in Eqypt.

Tell me again why that is so preferable to Assad remaining in power?

I’m with GonzoGOP - we don’t have a dog in this fight and should stay out, absent something I am missing. No one has been able to convince me otherwise, and it sure doesn’t seem to be happening in this thread.

[nuconvert]

Why does it matter if it’s “sustained” or not? Isn’t it bad enough that they’re shelling people’s homes at all?

[nuconvert]

I don't care what religion innocent people who are being killed & brutalized, practice. It doesn't matter to me what religion this child is, apparently it does to you.