Ron Paul: ‘Israel should be the Hong Kong of the Middle East’

>Yes but do they hate us for reasons related to Israel? If so, would rationalizing our relationship with Israel reduce the hatred and reduce the risk?

Not likely. Brigitte Gabriel, a person who would know about such matters, states that Islamists hate us because we are unbelievers. Or unbelievers who refuse to know their place. I suspect that we also stand in the way of their creating a modern version of the old Islamic Caliphate, a world superpower in medieval times.

Thank you. You, and Brigette Gabriel, are right.

We are unbelievers, and we must convert to Islam, or be murdered.

Plain and simple.

Very good point about us standing in the way of the new Caliphate.

>We are unbelievers, and we must convert to Islam, or be murdered.

Or submit to Dhimmitude. IMO, it’s interesting how the Leftists who call Israel a apartheid state are apparently silent about Dhimmitude, when it’s much closer to real apartheid than Israel ever could.

Yes but do they hate us for reasons related to Israel? If so, would rationalizing our relationship with Israel reduce the hatred and reduce the risk?
Yes. If you read Bin Ladin's declaration of war on the US, he blames us for the Gulf War, the occupation of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, supporting dictators who are returning the Muslim world to the "Jahiliyyah" (pre-Islamic or decadent state). But we are also blamed for Sebia's "mass murder" or Muslims, despite our intervening to stop this and for Russia's "mass murder" of Muslims on the Caucuses. He called for the reconquest of Al Andalus, which we would not allow as Spain is in NATO.
We can laugh and call this irrational but it is not. And surrendering Israel and even all of Europe would only buy us temporary peace. The mere act of refusing to convert after invitation and any real or perceived oppression of American Muslims would be reason enough for Jihad against us. Just ask the Byzantine Empire or Sassanide Persia.

Why do we think that rationalizing our obligations toward Israel constitutes "surrendering" our allies? After all, Israel has won every war it as fought and it alone among its immediate neighbors is possessed of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. Does the same logic about inviting attack apply to Taiwan, South Korea?
South Korea can take care of itself. I don't think that Muslims care about Taiwan, but they do understand retreat. Bin Laden spoke of our cutting and running from Somalia.

The US arms, funds and protects Israel's enemies. We protected the PLO in the 1980s and today. The Israel Lobby is a lot less powerful than people imagine, because there is no single lobby, but many groups who agree on only certain issues.

I have yet to hear what we get out of our support of Israel.
During the Cold War, Israel limited the power of Soviet allies and clients. After the Cold War, Israel has still kept the Muslim world divided, although Obama's support for the Muslim Brotherhood may be undoing this. Israel provide intelligence and training and acts as a magnet to Muslim hate. They hate us anyway, so why not let them focus their hatred on Israel.

Michael Scheurer, for example, sees our problem with terrorism to be of our own making, part of which is our support for Israel.
Scheurer sees the threat and pisses in his pants. He seeks accommodation and appeasement, not noticing that this has never worked.

“Or submit to Dhimmitude. IMO, it’s interesting how the Leftists who call Israel a apartheid state are apparently silent about Dhimmitude, when it’s much closer to real apartheid than Israel ever could.”

GOOD post! You deserve a ^5, a bump, and an *up twinkles*. ;o)

Thank you! I totally agree with you.

I am old enough to remember the debate between Kennedy and Nixon over Quemoy and Matsu and whether the risk of defending them was worth it. At the time there was a national discussion of the issue.

I believe this country needs to have a thoroughgoing airing of a cost-benefit analysis of our support for Israel. I would ask the following question: are the benefits we get out of our relationship with Israel worth risking an atomic attack on the homeland?

The answer might be that the risk is there anyway. But merely to assert that is not to prove it. Otherwise, I have never seen a preponderance of persuasive evidence of benefit to America but there is plenty of evidence of benefit to American politicians.

My suggestion which I made years ago on these threads was to offer every Israeli United States citizenship so that we are morally cleared for withdrawing our military commitment. Every Israeli could then move to the United States or take the risk of remaining in Israel and, although there is no hope in this culture of avoiding charges of anti-Semitism, at least the offer of citizenship could be raised in defense of the charge.

I am old enough to remember the debate between Kennedy and Nixon over Quemoy and Matsu and whether the risk of defending them was worth it. At the time there was a national discussion of the issue.

I believe this country needs to have a thoroughgoing airing of a cost-benefit analysis of our support for Israel. I would ask the following question: are the benefits we get out of our relationship with Israel worth risking an atomic attack on the homeland?
I'd like to see a rational debate, but that isn't going to happen. We cannot even discuss the enemy. We are not allowed to discuss the goals, intentions, and tools of the Islamists. Instead we are left with meaningless pablum of "moderate" vs "extremist" and accusaiton of Islamophobia, as if there is not a real rational fear of Muslims killing us. How are we to discuss protecting Israel, if we cannot discuss why the Muslims want to get rid of Israel, as well as Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary and Romania, all of which are NATO members.

My suggestion which I made years ago on these threads was to offer every Israeli United States citizenship so that we are morally cleared for withdrawing our military commitment. Every Israeli could then move to the United States or take the risk of remaining in Israel and, although there is no hope in this culture of avoiding charges of anti-Semitism, at least the offer of citizenship could be raised in defense of the charge.
I appreciate your desire not to see Israeli Jews exterminated, but the destruction of the Jewish state and holy sites would be quite damaging, regardless of the numbers of survivors.