(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT HEYER, COUSIN OF LATE BORDER PATROL BRIAN TERRY: He had already made his travel plans to fly back to Michigan and spend the Christmas holiday with his family. Brian's attention to detail had ensured that all the Christmas gifts he had meticulously selected for his family had already been bought and sent in the mail prior to his arrival.
Brian did ultimately come home that Christmas. We buried him not far from the house that he was raised in just prior to Christmas Day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: His still grieving cousin speaking before the House oversight committee. Now the committee also heard from ATF whistleblowers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER FORCELLI, SPECIAL AGENT, ATF: We weren't giving guns to people who were hunting bear. We were giving guns to people who were killing other humans.
JOHN DODSON, SPECIAL AGENT, ATF: Rather than meet the wolf head on, we sharpened his teeth, added number to his claw. All the while we sat idly by watching, tracking and noting, as he became a more efficient and effective predator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So remember, the idea was to give guns to drug -- to gun runners, to drug runners, to Mexican drug cartels, track where those weapons were and ultimately -- ultimately on the Mexican side of the border arrest the people and kind of figure out the networks, the drug cartel networks.
Testimony, though, revealed that Mexican authorities couldn't tell the U.S. where the weapons were, where they were going because they weren't even told about the operation. So the United States was essentially arming Mexican drug cartels and no one told the Mexican government.
The question both then and now is who ultimately was responsible for conceiving this kind of an operation, a risky operation, and never -- anything like it had ever been done before, and then seemingly executing it so poorly?
The answer -- the true answers, we still don't know. Washington is not saying. In May, Attorney General Eric Holder told the committee that he learned about "Fast and Furious" more than a year after it was launched. And President Obama has said that neither he nor his attorney general approved the strategy of letting firearms just walk into Mexico.
Acting ATF director Kenneth Melson also testified there was no policy director from Washington or the administration to use this tactic. He said he had not known that such details or briefed superiors about them. He has since left the job.
Now back in July a man named William Newel, the head of the Phoenix ATF office, told Congress that he made mistakes in handling the operation but defended the aim of it. He said he wanted to take out the entire gun running organization, not just a -- stop a few easily replaced links in the chain. He has been reassigned.
And the details keep coming out now. Drew Griffin joins us with the latest.
Drew, so not only -- what have you learned now, Drew?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it deals with what was happening and the guns that were being used. In a letter that was written by Congressman Issa and Senator Grassley that we got ahold of, the lawmakers say they have now obtained detailed information from confidential sources that the biggest fish that the ATF had in his whole operation, Anderson, was actually this informant with the FBI.
So not only was this an operation that didn't have any way to track guns once they went across the border, but one of the biggest targets that the ATF thought they might take down as part of it was working with the FBI.
Senator Grassley's letter suggests that shows a complete lack of communication between the ATF, the DEA and the FBI.
COOPER: So let me just -- I just want to re-clarify this just -- because it's a little bit confusing.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
COOPER: These guns were being purchased with taxpayer money and then the guns were being basically allowed to go over the border into Mexico by drug runners that were then used by Mexican drug cartels.
GRIFFIN: Some, some. Let me first tell you about the operation.
COOPER: OK.
GRIFFIN: Here's what the ATF agents did. They sat outside gun shops in the southwest where they knew these straw buyers were buying 10, 15, AK-47s at a time and going across the border into Mexico.
They're sitting out there doing surveillance, knowing these guys are bad guys. And they were said -- literally calling their superiors, let me arrest them now, let me take them down now. Their orders were, no, let's let them walk across the border with the guns. That's where they lost track of the guns because there was no way once they went across the border to know where those guns were.
Now the information from yet another letter, right? This one written to a gun shop owner essentially is informing that gun shop the ATF is going to send in an agent to buy four pistols for, quote, "official duties." We now know that these too were purchased as part of "Fast and Furious." So not only were they tracking the guns purchased illegally, they were also buying guns with taxpayer dollars and allowing those to go across the border as well.
COOPER: So -- I mean, again, clarify why the ATF would purchase these weapons?
GRIFFIN: This -- the operation makes no sense. According to every law enforcement authority I have talked with, and that includes many ATF agents themselves, you don't ever let a gun walk, as they say in this business, Anderson. Especially without any way to know where it is going.
So what's the real purpose? The lack of sense, the apparent cover-up has opened the door now for these conspiracy theorists. And you got to follow this. They believe this was part of a convoluted plan for the Obama administration and the attorney general to actually increase the level of violence on the Mexican border with assault weapons purchased in the U.S. in an apparent attempt to rekindle interest in an assault weapons ban.
As wacky as that may sound, I must tell you that theory is gaining traction, not just among the second amendment crowd because this operation makes no other sense.
COOPER: You've spoken with the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, what do they say is the next step in all this?
GRIFFIN: Congressman Issa said there is only one step to take. And that is for a special prosecutor, somebody outside the realm of the Attorney General's Office, to get in and get to the bottom of this, trying to find out who knew exactly what, who knew when, and that call is being backed up by the second amendment crowd, the National Rifle Association.
The NRA's president releasing a statement saying that this is the biggest cover-up since Watergate. It's time to ask Watergate questions like who authorized "Fast and Furious" and how high up does it go.
COOPER: Drew Griffin, appreciate you staying on this.
Earlier tonight I spoke with a sheriff, Paul Babeu of Pinal County, Arizona. He says that neither he nor his deputies were told about "Operation Fast and Furious" and he has a lot of other strong words. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, Sheriff, the Mexican cartels have obviously been a huge problem in your county for your officers. When you hear, when you realize that the federal government has essentially been arming these cartels, what goes through your mind?
SHERIFF PAUL BABEU, PINAL COUNTY, ARIZONA: We feel it's a -- it's a betrayal. Forty-two thousand people have been killed. And these weapons that our own government gave -- facilitated to these violent criminals in Mexico, 200 plus people we know have been killed for them. So there's --
COOPER: Two hundred plus?
BABEU: Two hundred plus. And we also now have our hero in the Border Patrol, as you know, Agent Brian Terry, killed on American soil. Three guns have been found at the murder scene. All three of them were connected to this program. And so for us, my -- I'm fearful, not just my deputies, other officers, citizens in America that we're going to be facing the barrels of guns that have been put in the hands of the most violent criminals in North America and who's going to be held accountable for this?
COOPER: Have your officers encountered any of the weapons linked to "Fast and Furious"? I mean obviously, as you said, three were involved in the killing of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.
BABEU: Well, we had a shooting just last week. A cartel member opened fire on an officer coming down from a hilltop. We've been actively pursuing the cartel members in our county. We're not even on the border, we're 70 miles north of the border and we had this happen. And we don't know if these weapons that were confiscated are linked yet to "Fast and Furious."
But 11 crimes now on American soil have been linked to these weapons. And they're semiautomatic, fully automatic and even 50 caliber rifles that are sniper rifles.
COOPER: I want to --
BABEU: We don't even have those type of guns.
COOPER: Yes. I want to read something that you said or quoted as saying, "If somebody gives a gun to somebody knowing they're going to commit murder, guess what we call them? We call them accomplices."
Do you think the ATF are -- have been accomplices to murder?
BABEU: Absolutely. That --
(CROSS TALK)
BABEU: There's no immunity when --
COOPER: So you're saying what they were doing was criminal?
BABEU: Absolutely. Not just these individual agents, but people up the chain of command who have made the decision. The U.S. attorney for Arizona just resigned. And this is a big deal. Now it's one step away from Eric Holder. This is his Department of Justice and there are people who have lost their lives.
We have broken countless treaties with our neighbor, Mexico, and we have a hand in responsibility in this violence that has come to the United States but more importantly Mexico is our partner. They're not our enemy. And we facilitated guns into the cartels that have worked to topple the Mexican government.
COOPER: From a law enforcement standpoint, I mean did this operation make any sense at all?
BABEU: It doesn't. Where it came from is this concept when we allow drugs or cash or sometimes a criminal walk, we may watch a crime in progress and -- where we can take lawful action. We allow that criminal to go in an effort to watch it spider web and to see how many people we can catch.
They use the same concept with weapons. And this is pure insanity. It's never been done before to give weapons like this. And their idea was to track the weapons? There was no tracking mechanism. Now all these guns are nowhere to be found, and for years this will haunt the conscience of America rightly.
COOPER: And as you say, I mean, the weapons are still out there and who knows how many others may die because of that.
Sheriff, I appreciate you being on with us. Thank you.
BABEU: Thank you, Anderson.
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