Posted on 07/20/2011 8:23:11 PM PDT by decimon
The same could be said about Moses and the Old Testament. The Apostles gave their lives to proclaim the Gospel, I trust them. There is no reason to think the New Testament is less reliable than the Old Testament.
“Rabbinical Judaism” started with Moshe Rabbeinu- the first Rabbi of the Torah. Way before that, it was Avraham ( Abraham). The actual term, in its ORIGINAL, true context, refers to the writings in the Oral Torah- the Talmud, Midrashim, and other scripture by the Rabbinic sages, such as the Rambam, the Ari, and the Bal Shem Tov.
You can’t revise or redefine Judaism to fit your needs. Nor can you revise, or redefine its scripture. It was given by G-D, Himself, to the Jews, written by Jews, for Jews, and we know exactly what it means.
Judaism does not believe in Jesus, or the resurrection of Jesus. Nor does it believe that HaShem would manifest Himself as a man. G-D uses angels to do that, as he did with Abraham, Jacob, as he did with Lot and so many others. Such a concept is Chillul HaShem in Judaism, as it is idolatry.
Christianity is Christianity. It is NOT a continuation of Judaism. It is an offshoot that holds some tennants of Judaism. Jesus was a Jew, and a Rabbi- he kept Kosher, studied Torah, and performed the 613 Mitzvot, as all Jews are required to do. Do you??? He had a ritual Brit Millah, as required by Judaism. Did you? As a Jew, Jesus was called to the Torah on Saturdays, the Shabbat. Were you? Jews live and conduct their lives by the Halacha. Do you? Jews are required to study the Torah their entire lives. Do you? Jews daven 3 times a day. Do you? Jews are commanded to have a Kosher Mezzuzah on every door and gate of their homes. Do you? HaShem chose Shabbat on Saturday, not Sunday. Enroll in a Hebrew School taught by Rabbis, and learn what Judaism actually is.
If HaShem wanted to make changes before the Redemption, He would have done so. The Prophecies have NOT been fulfilled. That was the criteria- the prerequisite. For Jews, that is the bottom line because that is HaShems’ word. They are coming about now- exactly as written and like clockwork.
And by this, we know the time is very, very near.
What jeremiah was referring to, as he mentions repeatedly in his writings, is to be given at the time of the Geulah. And, it is of Kabbalah -we already know what this is to be, and what it means. If it had already been given, the world would not be as it is. But the Mitzvot do not change. Nor does the Torah HaShem said “Forever.” “Forever” does not mean change.
You cannot cherry pick and interpret Jewish scripture to fit your own desires. You have to read them, in context, as they were meant to be read.
On one hand, you twist Jeremiah to fit your beliefs, and on the other hand, you disallow the fact that the prophecies have NOT been fulfilled....it does not work that way. It was not ever written to be read that way- and again, we ought to know- It was given to the Jews, written by Jews and we know exactly what they mean. Which is why we are still Jews.
“The insistence that “alma cannot mean virgin is only a latter development in reaction to Christian use of that passage.”
That statement is just idiotic, and it is obvious to any Jew that you have never studied Hebrew. Those 2 Hebrew words have been in common use for literally thousands of years before Christianity even existed. Hebrew is very simple. “Alma” means young woman-married, single, or virgin. Women married at very young ages back then - often at age 12 or 13. “Betulah” was, and still is the Hebrew for virgin. There was no mixing up of those 2 words, either-especially as parents arranged the marriages of their children, and paternity and lineage was extremely important, and had to be assured. If you had studied Judaism, and Halacha- Jewish Law, you would most definitely understand this, without any question, what so ever.
Additionally. the Jews did not translate, or write Jewish or Christian scriptures into Greek. Christians did, and many years after Jesus died. Nor did Jews translate the Greek Christian scripture into Hebrew, or the English. You folks did that, all on your own.
Here’s a more infamous mistranslation: Michaelangelo’s famous statue of Moses in Italy has horns. The reason Moses has horns is because Pope Julius and all of his scholars could not correctly translate the Hebrew for Illumination and the great Light that radiated from Moshes’ head. They thought the Hebrew meant the horns of a beast coming out from out of his head. They actually believed and taught this.
HaShem gave the Torah to the Jewish people, and made HIS forever binding Covenant with them. As a result, Jews understand the grave responsibility of the Holy sefers. We do not dare change it, or revise it. And, until you can read and translate the Hebrew properly, and understand the Jewish scriptures as they were actually meant, you are only heir to a book of grossly misinterpreted text.
Actually, there is quite a bit written and known about Moses, including the members of his family. If you were able to read the Torah, as well as the other Jewish scripture, you would know this.
I do not redefine but Rabbinical Judaism is but one school of Judaism. As I stated before, in addition to the ancient Pharisees (the precursors of the modern Rabbinical Judaism) there were also the Sadducees and the Essenes. Even today there are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and yes Christian.
Nor can you revise, or redefine its scripture.
I am not revising or redefining Scripture. The meaning of Scripture is eternal, not the interpretation of the Rabbis. The Old Testament must be properly understood by God's revelation in the New Testament.
It was given by G-D, Himself, to the Jews, written by Jews, for Jews, and we know exactly what it means.
The first generation of Christians, including all of the Apostles, were Jews. They knew the Scripture at least as well as you.
Judaism does not believe in Jesus, or the resurrection of Jesus.
Rabbinical Judaism's refusal to believe in the Resurrection does not make it any less true. The testimony of the Apostles and their readiness to give their lives for that testimony is proof if its truth. You can ignore their testimony but you cannot deny it.
Nor does it believe that HaShem would manifest Himself as a man.
You cannot limit the free actions of God. What He chooses to do He chooses to do.
Christianity is Christianity. It is NOT a continuation of Judaism.
Not of Rabbinical Judaism but the true fulfillment of promises of the Torah. With the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross all other sacrifice come to an end. Forty years, one generation, after the Crucifixion God destroyed the Temple and its sacrifices cease. Those born under the Old Covenant before the Crucifixion are allowed to continue but they are the last generation. Even today with the return of the Jews to the land of Israel the Temple is not rebuilt.
Do you???
Do you offer sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem? NO, because God has destroyed the Temple. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled and and completed in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. The Old Covenant is not longer operative.
If HaShem wanted to make changes before the Redemption, He would have done so.
As He did in Jesus Christ.
You cannot cherry pick and interpret Jewish scripture to fit your own desires. You have to read them, in context, as they were meant to be read.
It is in their full context that the promised redemption in Jesus Christ can be recognized in the Old Testament.
“The insistence that “alma cannot mean virgin is only a latter development in reaction to Christian use of that passage.”
That statement is just idiotic, and it is obvious to any Jew that you have never studied Hebrew.
Your reply shows that you have never studied the history of Bible translations outside of anti-Christian polemics. The translation of "alma" in Is. 7:14 as "virgin" is not a Christian invention. It was Jewish scholars in the 3rd-1st centuries B.C. who translated it as "parthenos/virgin". Nor were there any criticism that this was an improper translation until after the rise of Christianity. So your argument should be directed toward these ancient Jewish scholars rather than toward Christians. Nor is this translation without merit. As any honest scholar familiar with translations knows, you cannot just use the dictionary listing but must rely on context. Otherwise you end up with Google translations. Words can often have multiple meanings according to context. As an example I will give the definition of "maid" from the American Heritage Dictionary (1982):
maid n. 1. a. A girl or an unmarried woman. b. A virgin. 2. A female servant.A simular variety of meanings for "alma" are found in Solomon Mandelkern's Veteris Testamenti Concordantiae (1896) where he gives puella nubilis (marriageable child) and virgo matura (mature virgin). I bring to your attention that Mandelkern was a Rabbi.
"Alma" occurs only nine times in the entire Old Testament. Its precise meaning is not so clear cut as you would have it. It does not just mean "young woman" but an "unmarried young woman." In the ancient world such a woman would be assumed to be a virgin. "Alma" and "betulah" could thus be functional equivalents.
In any case, even if we were to assume that the Jewish scholars whom Matthew quoted were mistaken with their translation it is not a big deal. The Virgin Birth does not depend on the translation of "alma" but on the testimony of the Apostles. The quote from Isaiah translated as "young woman" would still be appropriate because of the reference to Emmanuel, "God is with us."
Additionally. the Jews did not translate, or write Jewish or Christian scriptures into Greek. Christians did, and many years after Jesus died.
You might want to check with JewishEncyclopedia.com:
The oldest and most important of all the versions [translations of the Bible] made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum"). It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers.The Septuagint was a translation of the Old Testament into Greek by Jewish scholars in Alexandria in the 3rd-1st centuries B.C. Christians had nothing to do with it. It was the standard Greek version of the Old Testament among Jews at the time of Jesus. Writing the gospel in Greek it is only natural that Matthew would quote from it. In the end it is not academic disputes about the translation of this word or that which is important but the testimony of the Apostles. It is not enough to say that they were mistaken. They claimed to be witnesses to the life and Resurrection of Jesus. To deny the truth of their claim you would have to say that they were either mad or liars, neither of which can be sustained.
Additionally there is the fact that the Temple was destroyed and the Jews exiled two thousand years ago. The Old Covenant was linked to the possession of the land and worship in the Temple. The Babylonian Exile was the result of the infidelity of the people. What was the crime that caused the exile for the last two thousand years? Even today with the return of Jews to Israel the Temple has not been rebuilt nor are Jews in uncontested control of the land. God has shown in history that the Old Covenant with worship in the Temple is no longer operative.
You should not be so quick to assume ignorance of those who disagree with you. I am quite familiar with the Old Testament.
If you had read correctly what I wrote you would have seen that I was responding to JadeEmperor's statement:
There is actually very little that is known to be a fact about the historical "Jesus" existence besides the so-called "New Testament".Much is known about both Moses and Jesus, from the Old Testament in the first instance and from the New Testament in the second. My point was that testimony about Jesus in the New Testament is just as reliable as that about Moses in the Old Testament.
So when was Isaiah 9:6 fullfilled....this “Son who shall be called Wonderful, conscellor, the MIGHTY GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER, the Prince of Peace”....kind of blasphemous to call any man that according to your view. Yet is says a son, a man, is going to be born who is called that!
There has never been any king, or religious person born prior to 4 BC who could be called that in Jewish history. Even if you don’t believe that the Messiah the Christians believe in was the “truly the one” you must believe that the future one that the Jews will accept will be “God in flesh”. Isaiah 9:6 and 7:14 gives no quarter there.
So when was Isaiah 9:6 fullfilled....this “Son who shall be called Wonderful, conscellor, the MIGHTY GOD, the EVERLASTING FATHER, the Prince of Peace”....kind of blasphemous to call any man that according to your view. Yet is says a son, a man, is going to be born who is called that!
There has never been any king, or religious person born prior to 4 BC who could be called that in Jewish history. Even if you don’t believe that the Messiah the Christians believe in was the “truly the one” you must believe that the future one that the Jews will accept will be “God in flesh”. Isaiah 9:6 and 7:14 gives no quarter there.
Enroll in a proper Hebrew School to learn Hebrew and Torah, and Talmud from a Rabbi before you attempt to discuss Judaism, what it is, its history, various sects, its scripture, the prophecies and what they actually mean.
You are discussing it from a perspective that is either in simple, honest, ignorance of Judaism, or one that is intentionally revisionistic and “replacement”. All of which are incorrect, and require an education from an authentic Jewish source to correct it.
There have been many learned Jews, including Rabbis, who have learned the Christian faith and converted. One was Rabbi David Paul Drach who converted to Catholicism in 1823. Another was Israel Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome during World War II. Again, the first generation of Christians, including all the Apostles and Paul, were Jews. Paul in particular was learned in Scripture and was a disciple of Gamaliel.
Christians have studied the Scriptures for two thousand years, and yes also in Hebrew. They have also studied the writings of the Rabbis. It is not ignorance that causes us to reject the teachings of Rabbinical Judaism. So you can put your attitude of "more learned than thou" away. The fact of the Resurrection validates the claims of Jesus. All the sophistries of those who would deny this the reality that Jesus is the Son of God.
Actually, no. We do not believe that the Moshiach is “G-D in flesh”. According to all Jewish scripture, the Moshiach is human. He will be a rabbi- a Mekubalim, and a Tzaddik. And, he will be a King, descended from the lineage of King David, but he is quite human.
Your translation of Isaiah 9: 5-6 is incorrect:
This is the correct translation from the original Hebrew:
“For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Adviser (The One G-d in Heaven), Mighty G-d (The One G-d in Heaven), Eternal Father (The One G-d in Heaven), called his name Sar-shalom (prince of peace), etc...”
It refers to Herzekiah, the son of Azaz who saved Jerusalem from the Assyrian siege led by Sennacherib.
It is a prophecy of comfort and hope given to the King Herzekiah that he would be encouraged concerning the very worrisome battle Isaiah is referring to in this prophecy.
Again, you need to know how to read the Hebrew, read it in context, rather than cherry pick assorted verses.
...and there have been Catholic Priests and Christian ministers that have converted to Judaism. So what? All that proves is that people sometimes change their beliefs.
You believe Jesus was the Messiah and was resurrected- and that is fine- whatever floats your boat. But it does not validate it for us, and when you proceed to tell us what our own scripture means, when it was written for Jews, by Jews, concerning Jews, and you can’t even read, speak, write or translate the Hebrew correctly, and the very sources you read it from are not translated correctly, it strikes us as being a tad idiotic. You know more about Judaism and Jewish scripture than a Rabbinic sage or scholar???? Now, that is very, very doubtful.
When we try to explain to you “ why” it or where it is incorrect, and what the mistranslations are, you completely ignore it.
And in this, yes, we are indeed “more learned than thou”. We’ ve been at it for over 5,772 years. We read, speak and write Hebrew fluently, and we live our lives studying it and living by these scriptures, and we have died at the hands of people- some, just like you, for them. So, if you can put away your own attitude, you might just learn what the Jewish scriptures actually mean.
These were learned Jewish Rabbis. It proves that the acceptance of Christianity is not based upon ignorance of Jewish scriptures and teachings.
You believe Jesus was the Messiah and was resurrected- and that is fine- whatever floats your boat. But it does not validate it for us…
It should not be my personal belief in Jesus that validates that He is the true Messiah but the testimony of the Apostles who were eye-witnesses to His teaching and Resurrection and who gave their lives for what they proclaimed. I notice that you always avoid this topic. No amount of wishing that it is not so can take away the strength of their testimony. Added to this, as I have said, is that God Himself has shown that the Mosaic covenant is no longer operative by destroying the Temple two thousand years ago, a Temple that has yet to be rebuilt despite the return of the Jews to the land of Israel.
… and when you proceed to tell us what our own scripture means, when it was written for Jews, by Jews, concerning Jews, and you can’t even read, speak, write or translate the Hebrew correctly, and the very sources you read it from are not translated correctly, it strikes us as being a tad idiotic.
These are just as much our scriptures as yours. As I have pointed out before, Christianity is a product of Judaism. It might comfort you to believe that it is merely a misguided product of the goyim, but this is not so. Jesus was a Jew; the Apostles were all Jews; Paul was a Jewish Rabbi trained by Gamaliel himself; many of the first generation of Christians were Jews, including priests from the Temple in Jerusalem. Try as you will, you cannot separate Christianity from its Jewish roots. Nor can you denigrate Christian understanding of the Scriptures by claiming we do not understand Hebrew. There are numberless Christian scholars that are well trained in Hebrew.
You know more about Judaism and Jewish scripture than a Rabbinic sage or scholar???? Now, that is very, very doubtful.
There are generations of Christian scholars who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Scriptures; and yes, though you can try to deny it, even in Hebrew. Jews do not have any special gene that allows them, and them alone, to understand the word of God. God is the Father of us all and does not hide Himself from any of His children. I do not cede any special prowess to Jews in the study of Scripture because they are Jews.
When we try to explain to you “ why” it or where it is incorrect, and what the mistranslations are, you completely ignore it.
No, you have tried to explain nothing; all you have done is insisit that your views are correct because this is what Jewish Rabbis teach and that I cannot possibly understand or respond because I am not a Jew. Nor have I ignored what you have said. I have tried to respond to your points. It is you who have ignored what I have said. Your attempts to badger me to accept the teachings of Jewish Rabbis because they have some sort of greater insight because they are Jews will gain you nothing.
The Mosaic Covenant is no longer operative??? The fact that Israel was reborn, the Jewish people have survived, and thrived as incredibly well as they do, and the nations who come against Israel are receiving judgments, is proof enough. My, my you are aare are a revisionist- replacement theorist, aren’t you....????
If it wasn’t operative, then the prophecies would not be taking place, and indeed they are.....like clockwork, and exactly as written. The Temple will be rebuilt when the true Moshiach comes. That is what was originally written in the original Hebrew.
There are 304,805 letters (approximately 79,000 words ) in the Torah. In the over 3,250 years since Moses received the original Scripture from Mt. Sinai and wrote the 13 copies (twelve of which were distributed among the Tribes), spelling variants have emerged on a total of nine words, with absolutely no effect on their meaning.
“There are numberless Christian scholars that are well trained in Hebrew”.
If they were so well trained, there would be no mis-translations. The fact is, there are, and they are numerous. Perhaps you can’t see what they are, or just don’t want to, but any Jewish person can- even our children. It is a matter of going to Hebrew school to study Judaism under a Rabbi, and to learn to read, write and speak Hebrew. And, anyone, Jew or gentile, who avails themselves to this education, can see them too. They are that obvious.
Glad you mentioned Paul. It was Paul who confessed to using deception and lies to make converts:
• Corinthians 9:20-22: To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law — though not being myself under the law — that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law — not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ — that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.
• Romans 3:7: If through my lies God’s truth abounds to His glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
• Philippians 1:18: In every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Jesus is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. The veracity of everything that Paul stated and wrote is called into question by the fact that these quotes are found in the books he himself authored. Or, did he?
It is very curious to us that there is no reference to Jesus’ resurrection by the noted scholars, historians, politicians and writers of his time. There is no mention of the crucifixion at all. John E. Remsburg’s “The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence”, lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:
• Josephus
• Philo-Judææus
• Seneca
• Pliny Elder
• Arrian
• Petronius
• Dion Pruseus
• Paterculus
• Suetonius
• Juvenal
• Martial
• Persius
• Plutarch
• Pliny Younger
• Tacitus
• Justus of Tiberius
• Apollonius
• Quintilian
• Lucanus
• Epictetus
• Hermogones Silius Italicus
• Statius
• Ptolemy
• Appian
• Phlegon
• Phæædrus
• Valerius Maximus
• Lucian
• Pausanias
• Florus Lucius
• Quintius Curtius
• Aulus Gellius
• Dio Chrysostom
• Columella
• Valerius Flaccus
• Damis
• Favorinus
• Lysias
• Pomponius Mela
• Appion of Alexandria
• Theon of Smyrna
Enough of the writings of the authors named in the above list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, according to Remsburg, “aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus.” Nor, do any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles. One would think that G-D showed up in human form, these folks would have written a great deal about it.
All this aside, Judaism, unlike the Christianity, does not believe that the Messiah is Jesus. The noun moshiach (translated as messiah) annotatively means “annointed one;” it does not, however, imply “savior.” The notion of an innocent, semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought or scripture.
In the Tanach, Moshiach is used exactly 38 times- 2 patriarchs, 6 high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David. Not once, is this word used in reference to the awaited Messiah. Even in the book of Daniel, the only time Moshiach is used is in connection to a murdered high priest. The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Pseudepigrapha, and Apocrypha never mention the Messiah.
The man destined to be the Moshiach will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David’s son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings ((Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world. The missions that the Moshiach will accomplish in his lifetime ( Isaiah 42:4) are to:
• Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)
• Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
• Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)
• Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).
There are over a dozen additional prophecies which the Messiah will also achieve (there is no mention of any “second coming” in the Tanach. or even in your the “New Testament”).
In order to avoid identifying the wrong individual as Mossiach, the Halacha- the Jewish Code of Law, dictates specific criteria ( Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4):
“If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.
• If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah.”
Finally, over 1,000 years before the attributed birth of the historical Jesus, it was recorded in the Tanach:
• Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor the son of man, that He should repent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?
No where in any of the original Jewish scripture- and that includes prophecy- does it state that the Moshiach will die or be crucified, or that he will be raised from the dead any more than anyone else. The Torah will be strengthened by the teachings and practices of the Messiah. It will not be weakened nor changed in the slightest.
The Messiah is merely G-d’s messenger and vehicle for the Redemption. We do not await the Messiah. We await our redemption from exile, and an end to all human suffering in this world. The Messiah’s purpose is not to make it possible for us to go to Heaven. The Torah teaches us how to do that already.
No, I am a fulfillment theorist. Christianity is the fulfillment and legitimate continuation of Judaism. In Christianity the gentiles have not replaced the Jews but have been grafted onto to the continuing living Jewish stock. God's promises to the Jews have not been repealed but find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ.
It was Paul who confessed to using deception and lies to make converts:
What complete and utter nonsense. I would never question your knowledge of the Old Testament but you have none of the New. Let us take a look at the three citations you give. In 1 Corinthians all Paul is saying is that he makes himself sympathetic to his listeners no matter who they are. This is what all good speakers do. There is no intimation that he is using deception and lies to win converts. The line from Romans needs a longer quotation to understand what Paul is saying:
To Greeks and non-Greeks alike, to the wise and the ignorant, I am under obligation; that is why I am eager to preach the gospel also to you in Rome For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous by faith will live."Paul is talking about the relationship between Gentiles and Jews to the Gospel and the Law. Paul is not saying that he lies in order to spread the faith. What a ridiculous thing to say: believe what I preach because I am lying to you. Rather he is saying that the purpose of the Law is not to bring justification but highlight our sinfulness and in contrast the righteousness of God. Notice that he says everyone is a liar: "God must be true, though every human being is a liar." His statement about "my falsehood" is to be understood as that of everyone with whom he is equally guilty. Paul specifically condemns those who would sin in order to achieve a good: "And why not say--as we are accused and as some claim we say--that we should do evil that good may come of it? Their penalty is what they deserve." The whole quote present Paul a advocating just the opposite of what you claim he does.
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things. We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek There is no partiality with God.
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.
Now if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast of God and know his will and are able to discern what is important since you are instructed from the law, and if you are confident that you are a guide for the blind and a light for those in darkness, that you are a trainer of the foolish and teacher of the simple, because in the law you have the formulation of knowledge and truth-- then you who teach another, are you failing to teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who forbid adultery, do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob temples? You who boast of the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? For, as it is written, "Because of you the name of God is reviled among the Gentiles."
Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised? Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law. One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.
What advantage is there then in being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much, in every respect. (For) in the first place, they were entrusted with the utterances of God. What if some were unfaithful? Will their infidelity nullify the fidelity of God? Of course not! God must be true, though every human being is a liar, as it is written: "That you may be justified in your words, and conquer when you are judged." But if our wickedness provides proof of God's righteousness, what can we say? Is God unjust, humanly speaking, to inflict his wrath? Of course not! For how else is God to judge the world? But if God's truth redounds to his glory through my falsehood, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not say--as we are accused and as some claim we say--that we should do evil that good may come of it? Their penalty is what they deserve.
Well, then, are we better off? Not entirely, for we have already brought the charge against Jews and Greeks alike that they are all under the domination of sin, as it is written:"There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one. Their throats are open graves; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is on their lips; their mouths are full of bitter cursing. Their feet are quick to shed blood; ruin and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace they know not. There is no fear of God before their eyes."Now we know that what the law says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God, since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, through the forbearance of God--to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Does God belong to Jews alone? Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.
--Romans 1:14-3:31
Again, with Philippians we need a longer quote:
I want you to know, brothers, that my situation has turned out rather to advance the gospel, so that my imprisonment has become well known in Christ throughout the whole praetorium and to all the rest, and so that the majority of the brothers, having taken encouragement in the Lord from my imprisonment, dare more than ever to proclaim the word fearlessly. Of course, some preach Christ from envy and rivalry, others from good will. The latter act out of love, aware that I am here for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not from pure motives, thinking that they will cause me trouble in my imprisonment. What difference does it make, as long as in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed? And in that I rejoice. Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know that this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. My eager expectation and hope is that I shall not be put to shame in any way, but that with all boldness, now as always, Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death.Paul is not saying the he is lying to advance that Gospel but that others are preaching Christ for false reasons in order to cause him trouble in his imprisonment.
--Philippians 1:12-20
If you are going to comment upon the New Testament you should really study it and try to understand it, even if you continue to disagree with it, and not just rely on statement found in anti-Christian polemics. I now hope that you would have the honesty to recant your false charges against Paul.
It is very curious to us that there is no reference to Jesus’ resurrection by the noted scholars, historians, politicians and writers of his time. There is no mention of the crucifixion at all. John E. Remsburg’s “The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence”, lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived: … Enough of the writings of the authors named in the above list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, according to Remsburg, “aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus.” Nor, do any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles. One would think that G-D showed up in human form, these folks would have written a great deal about it.
Are you truly trying to propose the Jesus did not even exist? So did the Apostles die for a mythical figure they made up? It should not be surprising that there should be little notice of what happened. Jesus appeared to a small number of Jews in a fringe province of the Roman Empire. Even Pontius Pilate probably did not think that the Crucifixion of Jesus was a notable event. However by 68 A.D. there were enough Christians in Rome for Nero to attempt blame them for the fire. Nevertheless it is not true that there were no references to Jesus in ancient literature. He mentioned by Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Josephus and Mara bar Sarapion. Of course there are also references to Jesus in the Talmud.
“Of course there are also references to Jesus in the Talmud.”
You have apparently never read or studied the Talmud. The many Rabbis who wrote the Talmud ( the Oral Law of the Torah) repeatedly state that Jesus is neither Divine, or the Messiah. Don’t believe it? Go to a Hebrew school, Yeshiva, or an Orthodox Shul, and ask the Rabbi to show you.
Here is a link to an AUTHENTIC and ACCURATE translation of the Talmud so you can see for yourself:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/talmudtoc.html
You can graft a limb onto a tree, but it is still not the original, innate part of the tree. Nor can it ever be the original tree.
As much as Chritians would like to see Jesus written into the Jewish Scripture and prophecies, it simply is not reality. Most of the references made are about King David, and the others are of kings who lived long before. That is fact. Go study Judaism in a Hebrew school /Yeshiva, and you will see this for yourself. We know what the passages you refer to actually mean- and it has nothing to do with Jesus.
The Jewish scripture was given to Jews by HaShem, or written by Jews, concerning Jews, and for Jews, most of which was written thousands of years before there was a Christianity. Again, go study under a Rabbi in a proper Hebrew school (an Orthodox yeshiva, preferably), learn to read, write, and speak Hebrew, and you’ll know this- with a single doubt in your mind. Once you can read Hebrew correctly, and study Jewish history and Judaism, you’ll see just how obvious it is.
The mistranslations of the Hebrew in your scripture are so numerous, it takes pages to list. Again, learn Hebrew- and correctly, and read the ORIGINAL Jewish scripture- and the Torah.
But, to prove it to you, here are links to sites that list many of the mistranslations. They provide the corrections, along with very thorough explanations from the original Jewish scripture by noted Rabbinic scholars, and Rabbis and others in academia. Some of these are nearly 100 pages in length, each. However, they are very well laid out and easy to follow. Just click on the PDF files:
http://www.turntotorah.com/survival_guide_2-1.pdf
http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter-index.html
http://messiahtruth.com/jesusgen.html
http://messiahtruth.com/lxx.html
Believing in Jesus is your choice. That is your way of belief. Freedom of religion is why the USA is so great. There is room for all who believe in G-D, and even for those who don’t. But do not attempt to say it is Judaism, a part of, or continuation, or a fufilment of. It is not. Judaism is the root. Christianity is an off shoot. Islam is an offshoot. But neither of them is Judaism.
Judaism has many, many prerequisites that Christians do not practice, nor live by. You do not live by Torah, study Torah, or daven with the Siddur, nor do you perform the 613 mitzvot which all Jews must perform. Nor do you live by Halacha, observe Kasruth, or observe the Jewish holy days as all Jews must. You are not Shomer Shabbat, you desecrate Shabbos, as you do not observe the Sabbath as specifically commanded by G-D, nor on the day G-D created it -Saturday. You believe that a Rabbi is G-D in the flesh, and in Judaism that is a Chillul HaShem-a blasphemy. Many of your sects even have statues of Jesus, Mary, and saints that you either pray before, or use to represent G-D, or as “inspiration,” and that is to the letter of the Halacha, pagan idolatry. And, that is abomination of the worst kind.
HaShem in The Torah clearly states:
Exodus “4. You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5. You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me,
20. You shall not make [images of anything that is] with Me. Gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves.”
And then, there is that matter of the many mistranslations of the Hebrew.....and you then claim you are a “ fulfillment” a “legitimate continuation” of Judaism?
HaShem’s specifically stated that HIS words and covenants with the Jews are FOREVER. And, they are already being fulfilled to the Jews. Just look around you and see the prophecies now taking place, accurately and like clockwork........Israel is reborn, the Jews are beginning their return, Paras (Iran) has been stirring up troubles in the ME, and the goyim-the nations are being judged and punished for the evil they have done to the Jews and to Israel. And soon, Gog UMogog, the building of the 3rd Temple, the Moshiach, and the Geulah..........
“Are you truly trying propose the Jesus did not even exist? So did the Apostles die for a mythical figure they made up? It should not be surprising that there should be little notice of what happened. Jesus appeared to a small number of Jews in a fringe province of the Roman Empire.”
When HaShem appeared in the sky to the Jewish people, it was before 3 million people. HE spoke to them, taught them the 10 Commandments, taught them a prayer, they saw sound, and heard color, and He lifted Mt. Sinai above their heads and inverted it. When G-D appeared, it was before an entire nation.
Jesus existed. But we do not accept, or believe that he was the messiah,
or G-D. Nor was Paul, as you state, a Rabbi. That is just total nonsense. He was not Jewish, let alone a Hebrew. His “Hebrew” was from the Greek -the Septuagint- no Rabbi or Rabbinic school would ever consider that even valid. And, it is incredulous to even suggest it. Had he actually studied under a Rabbi, let alone a Rabbinic sage, his Hebrew would have been genuine and correct, flawless in every detail. Rabbinic sages and Mekubalim only take the most gifted of students of Torah. There is a definite criteria that must be met to be given smicha. As for resurrection of the dead, it had been done before by the Mekubalim, and since then. Again, go to an Orthodox or Chabad shul and ask the Rabbis to show you the passages where it was done.
You might also want to look at the Resurrection time lines on pages 83 through 93.:
http://www.turntotorah.com/survival_guide_2-1.pdf
also, the Comparative genealogy on page 74 and 75.
If Peter and James could state that “The true unadulterated Law of Moses is unbearable”, then it smacks of politics on their end- and that shows an agenda. They did not want the Pharisees dictating to the Gentiles their idea of the Law with all its oral traditions of additions and amendments. This is what Peter was referring to when he called the Law an “unbearable yoke”. Funny, the Jews never found it unbearable. Nothing in the Torah, or the 613 Mitzvot, that HaShem would command of people, is unbearable. Jews still follow those laws today.........HaShem gave us Torah for our betterment and good so that we will ascend to him. How could that ever be “unbearable” ?
Paul, appears nowhere in the secular histories of his age (no, he is not in Tacitus, not in Pliny, and not in Josephus, etc.) However, there are a number of forgeries that even the church says are very poor frauds. Paul, we are told, mingled in the company of provincial governors, and had audiences before kings and emperors, no scribe thought it worthwhile to record these events?
Funny, how they did with everyone else.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/josephus.html
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.