New Designs Suit Tanks For Asymmetric War

AviationWeek.com ^ | Apr 22, 2011 | David Eshel, Bill Sweetman

[archy]

That's about the same time the Army cancelled the M8 Armored Gun System which was slated to replace the 82nd's M551 Sheridans.

Not air transportable by C130, and with a bad habit of tipping over on its side if the "main gun" was fired to either side.

I always wondered about dropping a Sheridan turret on a Bradley, though. It'd have solved a lot of the automotive problems we had with the early M551s.

[archy]

I always had a soft spot for the Sheridan and when I played NG for a while, there was a Sheridan TC in the same outfit. He was one wild dude but a good guy.

You should have known some of the guys on the 7th Army Airborne Delivery Test Board, tasked in the late 1960s with developing airdrop procedures for the Sheridans in USAREUR. Airborne Treadheads, the wildest and craziest of both worlds.

"Ever see a Sheridan burn? Keep watching Two-zero."

--Final line of The Way We Die by David Drake, collected in The Military Dimension. [Baen Books]

[archy]

Must be a different platform, then. Here's a link to the Stingray page...as you can see, it's definitely a Sheridan hull.

Not with six road wheels. See pic in post #41.

Maybe a stretch job, like the stretched M113s. But I don't think so.

[archy]

Besides armor upgrades and armor for the loader's 7.62 machine gun, the commander's .50 cal machinegun is now operable from inside the vehicle. There's also thermal imaging sights.

Does it have an escape hatch for the driver? Let me know when they've got a version with a belly escape hatch for the driver.

[archy]

Thanks.

After we kicked Iraq out of Kuwait, a Russian general said he was glad they never had to go up against our Air and Armored Forces in Europe.

He is dead flat correct. And I'm glad we never had to stop the Eighth Guards Army anywhere between Frankfurt/Gelnhausen/Fulda and Munich.

I figure we would have nailed them at a rate of about 15 to one. I also figure they would have thrown 25-1 or 30-1 at us.

[archy]

Geez. The Israelis discovered the Shillelagh missile. The old tank/antitank argument.

They also discovered that the guidance wires on Dragon/Shillelagh/Malyutka AT missiles can be cut by intermediate WP smoke fires, one reason the Israeli merkavim have a 2-inch mortar mounted in the turret. Handy for infantry support in MOUT, too, as they found out in Lebanon.

I used to train my Infantry Soldiers to wear body armor in the assault. My little Ranger Lieutenants told me that body armor was worthless. It just slowed them down and made them hot. They thought the Kevlar helmet was worthless, too. They could just wear a patrol cap. But, when the shooting starts..everyone wants armor.

Daytime, yep. Nighttime, less so. Depends a lot on whether the patrol SOP is *shoot anyone with a helmet* or *shoot anyone without a helmet*

No problem getting tank crews to wear the CVC though. The commo systems work a lot better now than they did 30 years ago. I recently did a press tour ride in an Abrams, and brought my old Nomex frog suit and CVC helmet along. I got an offer to drive, to which I replied ***fork you, young sergeant, I'm a gunner....***

[colorado tanker]

My unit was to be one of the first to deploy to Germany and pick up prepositioned equipment. We participated in a massive CPX to war game a Sov conventional invasion. We had them pretty much stopped about half way across West Germany, but losses were heavy.

[colorado tanker]

I think plans to phase out the Abrams were shelved when the Future Combat System was canceled.

[unkus]

Damn. So was attrition on our side? Could we have won?

[archy]

Damn. So was attrition on our side? Could we have won?

I expected it to go theater nuclear right adter Ivan's first chem attack. I didn't really figure I'd still be around by then, but figured I'd be at it for a week to ten days.

General Sir John Hackett, John Peters and Harold Coyle, among others, have a couple of novels out about what it might have been like. Gen. Hackett figured it'd go to strategic missile exchanges of cities, and he is a very smart old bunny.

[archy]

I was heavily involved with both the first REFORGER [REdeployment of FORces to GERmany] movements in the late 1960s, and the oops! recall of Shillelagh/TOW gunners in 1972 when an expected North Vietnamese Easter tank offensive was to be met with every TOW-armed attack helo that could be found globally.

We had them pretty much stopped about half way across West Germany, but losses were heavy.

Our expectation was that we'd fight as a battalion as directed for as long as we could, refuel and reammo, then break into company-sized hunting pack units of 17 tanks each, plus strays, then get one last refuel/ammo resupply and break into five and six tank platoons.

That would mean in our M60A1 that we had burned off 63 rounds worth of main gun ammo three times, probably plus a fudge factor, call it 200 main gun rounds per tank. That'd be 75-125 bad guy vehicle kills, depending on how many were first round hits, which were a second round *burst on target* and how many required a *repeat* second finishing shot. Plus 30,000 rounds of co-ax for Ivan's groundpounder Infantry dismount *crunchies*.

You guys would have been the cavalry coming to save the surrounded wagon train. But we had some really nasty surprises for the other folks, particularly in our AVLB scissors bridges.

[archy]

In Europe, two contractors, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) and Rheinmetall, are working on armor protection and weapon systems for MBTs and infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs), which not only enhance performance and situational awareness, but give crews more time to make decisions—a key advantage in low-intensity combat.

[archy]

Merkava MK-4

[archy]

I think plans to phase out the Abrams were shelved when the Future Combat System was canceled.

Would that have been right after they shut down the Armor School at Ft Knox and moved everything to Ft. Benning?

[Lazamataz]

From what I understand the Abrams has been scheduled for de-activation over the next 10-20 years. It’s a big mistake.

No, it's not. Tanks are expensive grave markers in the new battlefield. When HUMVEES are sporting rail guns and directed energy weapons, tanks are foolish.

[colorado tanker]

Small world, archy. I went to Germany on a REFORGER in the 1970's. Even though in wartime we would have been flown to Germany and picked up warehouse stocks they had us take our own equipment. Just to see if it could be done, I think, because no one had done it in decades. We loaded the battalion on the U.S. railhead to ship to the east coast where it went by ship. We picked it up at the railhead as a kaserne near Stuttgart.

We were all over northern Bavaria and Baden-Wurtemberg.

We were in a mech infantry division and would have been IIRC the first CONUS heavy unit to be sent to the rescue.

[colorado tanker]

I think the two happened around the same time but I don't think they were related. I think FCS was canceled because it had become a money pit and they were still a long way off from viable systems.

Fine with me. I'm partial to that good ol' Abrams.

[unkus]

Thank you very much for your service. I can’t imagine what you went through. That’s about as serious as it gets. Thank you for sharing.

[B4Ranch]

I can recall Sky Raiders and the AC-47 Magic Dragons as being in high demand during the mid 60’s when I was in Nam. Then the C-130’s came into being and took over the job. I loved watching them at night.

[unkus]

I loved watching them at night.

---

Same here. After 40 years, I really can’t remember if they were C-130’s or the Magic Dragons. We just knew they were putting the hurts on the guys who wanted to put the hurts on us grunts.