Posted on 02/05/2011 5:21:45 PM PST by Reagan69
The gospel wasn’t preached beyond reciting the mission of NPCC which is to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ, and in the music, particularly from the Ray of Hope Choir. I have been listening to the talk shows this morning and especially on Laura Ingraham she is voicing the concern about the partnering - making people’s health into a religion - also a concern of mine, and from the FLOTUS speech she suggests that this all started because of the people. So much work has been done by those in the obesity field to initiate a social movement on this topic that is similar to the anti-smoking campaign and the use of social marketing and focus groups etc. to start a snowball effect on getting kids healthier. Once FLOTUS made this her signature issue she utilized the work that has been ongoing for many years to give public strong voice to the effort and the movement. It is in some ways similar to the Tea Party movement except this movement was initiated by the government and private foundations (robert wood johnson etc.) who are partnering with the government to raise awareness and make the issue into a crisis (over half adults overweight or obese and nearly a quarter of kids obese, how can we not act) and not by individuals concerned about their kids as FLOTUS implied. Individuals came second, once the movement was envisioned. She also made it sound like the reason Wal mart and congress acted was because of a vocal citizenry but it was actually because of a strong-arming administration. Again, then once the programs got rolling, citizens became involved and are now engaged. The question I have is whether this type of organized social movement engineered by the government is ever a good thing. The other main comparison other than tobacco is the space race, when the government urged us to act together to beat the soviets into space. But unlike competing with evil to outdo them, this is focusing on our collective health and it really leans toward blaming private industry. And yet obesity and poor health of our children does warrant some focus. I would prefer a partnership with private companies rather than forcing and strong-arming them into going along. The combined nature of the effort, governmental policy and programs along with personal responsibility makes me a little concerned about partnering with the churches. I just pray that all involved with the church seek wisdom and be careful and in fact fearful of govt. partnerships.
I am Not, I had the same thing happened to my post yesterday. Thanks for the report. I was especially glad to hear the positives, because this whole thing has just been really hard, especially if you give a rip.
davidlachnicht: Some of us have been working all week to get to the bottom of this and I’m guessing we’ll be working our way through it for a lot more days to come. Like I said before, it’s not a mob mentality that put us all together at North Point. It is a desire to hear the Scripture used accurately and to escape the arrogance so often heard in pulpits. This has especially slammed families—you trust the church with influence in your kids’ lives (unlike the schools) and then suddenly everything changes.
PM, I’ll let you speculate on that whole gospel thing. I’m still working out my own thoughts from this week. A sample: Back on November 30, Obama contacted religious leaders to ask for their help with the Let’s Move campaign—I’m thinking “you were asked last week, or in November AND last week?” Now that “One, Not Everyone” sermon means something different. Now my agitation over that “Americans don’t know what real problems are” statement seems justified. That “Be Bold” sermon seems manipulative. I read an article about how Axelrod advised Ms. Obama to get religious leaders involved as validators. I learn Nixon (Republican) was known for giving religious leaders the royal treatment and then sending them back home to be “mouthpieces.” I read a former Southern Baptist Convention president, who was on Obama’s first faith-based council, said he had to fairly much “check his Bible at the door” and not use it as a reference point in any of the work he was doing. Then I think, so are we going to check the Bible at the door on the obesity issue hosted at NPCC? Who, in our community, has more influence anyway—Andy or the Obamas—well, Andy, so why doesn’t he tackle this issue on his own? Obama certainly can’t do what Weight Watchers has not done, and now we’ve just used up our church’s credibility for absolutely nothing! I read the new faith-based council is about to be selected, so is this what all this was about? On a personal level, the minute this thing hit the news, people were looking at us like we weren’t what we seemed, and I had nada to do with the decision. I’m looking at Andy like he isn’t what he seemed, feeling he certainly, at least, deserved it seeing as he did have something to do with the decision.
Then I listened to the sermon from this past Sunday. I can’t tell you I like the idea any better, I agree with it, or I don’t feel manipulated. But I can say I am as certain as I can be that Andy has not changed. The inaugeration thing did not change him or the leadership. The church’s decision was definitely under the SAME umbrella as the mission statement-SOUNDLY-when you listen to what Andy said in that sermon. There was still that same awful, awful anguish over the unchurched in it all. I can now say, though, that I WILL proudly take the good with the bad on this one.
For me, I don’t know that the details change anything I feel about this. The situation does not become any more right or wrong, depending on how it was carried out (that’s situational ethics).
“Let’s Move” is big government, socialist agenda, period. Michelle Obama’s traveling around promoting this agenda is costing taxpayers millions of dollars. Wait until it becomes a “program” that we have to pay for, like putting salad bars in schools. Wait until the program involves so many regulations that restaurants, grocery stores and farmers are put out of business.
It is part of the big picture of socialism - replace God with government. Replace parents with government and yes replace church with government. Do some homework on the ideals of socialism, and see the role of the church. They believe loyalty to God, and one’s religion, is fine as long as it does not contradict the rules put forth by government.
One of my friend’s whole arguments to me that it was okay was that Michelle Obama or other visitors could hear the Gospel, but it sounds that the truth of Jesus Christ wasn’t preached. What the congregation DID see and hear was much accolades given to a woman that believes partial term abortion is a “legitimate medical procedure”, pushing agenda that replaces God with government.
The church kept talking about bringing people in the church doors, but it seems no one was worried for the people were led astray by HER agenda and false teaching.
It’s all very black and white to me. If I went there, I would want more than answers, I would want assurances that they realize the mistake this was and are taking a different tack. If they stood by this decision, I’d be looking for a new church home, sadly.
That’s just me.
I said I’d take the good with bad, but I agree with with all you said including more led astray than anything. I don’t think it was done with intentions of a brownnoser, but you are spot on about the money, the further opportunity for corruption, the ineffectiveness, the validation of big government and every thing, and how this event has led others into a closer relationship with the obamas with all the damaging influence you implied. I will address it with the church as I hope everyone here will
"Keep the government out of our private kitchens".
"With your weight you live in a fragile glass house so stop the stone throwing!"
"Superbowl Sunday pig out hypocrite."
"You talk the talk but don't walk the walk."
"Mind your own business."
"Say no to the food gestopo."
"You're not my mother so stop acting like it."
I agree with everything you said.
A lot of the Old Testament has to be taken into context too. We tend to look at the stories in the Bible through the lens of today’s world. We are shocked by actions taken, but when we understand that these were the “norms” of their society, then we begin to understand. Andy was putting Mohammed in that same lens, but went on to say that Jesus transcends all eras, all cultures, all trends. He is truly without fault and needs no asterisk to explain any action. That puts him above all others, without equal.
His comparison with the earlier “Christian” church to some Islamic leaders today, I also can’t deny. His direct quote from a Medieval pope ordering the slaughter all who don’t adhere to the faith doesn’t sound much different than many imams today. They were words that would not come from the mouth of Jesus. That was his point.
I attend Buckhead (part of the Northpoint umbrella for those not from Atlanta), and I have a friend who was turned down for having an event at Northpoint because it did not fit their focus of “leading people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.” I think this was for an event benefiting an autistic charity.
I respect that Northpoint stays focused on their mission, even if it means they must turn down worthy groups like this one. It’s just too easy to get off track. That’s why I was a little confused when Andy announced the first lady event. However, I have been impressed with Andy’s judgement in the past, and I’m sure a lot of prayer and deliberation went into this decision.
I can understand the confusion. Did you hear the “One, Not Everyone” sermon? That set up conveniently for this exception.
I hate the ones who made the decision are not the ones to first take the calls. I don’t know Cynda, but it sounds like she is the one hearing the tones and complaints first-hand and likely had NOTHING to do with the decision if it was made by Andy/Elders. I hate they have allowed themselves to be so insulated and hidden behind a person who likely does not have sufficient training for so drastic a change in her job. I agree Andy’s made one sound decision after another, but I hope he/elders make themselves available for “conversations” about this.
You’re right, it’s too easy to get off track. But I could think of better ways to do it, such as have a wedding chapel and give the metro area an inexpensive and beautiful place for weddings. Could welcome a lot of unchurched couples who are living together because they can’t afford weddings yet.
I heard Laura Ingram discussed some of the concerns in her program yesterday. Does anybody know whether or not there are other forums or discussions going on? Our local newspaper didn’t even put it on the front page and didn’t mention the name of the church. Very unusual for them.
FReepers, we appreciate you giving us a place to talk this week, but what techniques do you find to be best for helping this country when you see Obama get another huge foothold? I’m just so discouraged by it all.
The situation does not become any more right or wrong, depending on how it was carried out (that’s situational ethics).
I agree wholeheartedly. I was just relieved to find the decision I felt was so WRONG was seemingly not made with evil intentions. One horrible decision out of a pastor over a six-year period is far better than what I’ve had in the past or could hope to find in the future for a family I’d have to pry out of there. I do NOT agree with the decision for the reasons all of you and I have stated. There are a thousand other ways to welcome the unchurched than compromising the witness of every single member in it.
I am also new to the site and happened on it through google search. I would like all, but particularly those involved with NPCC to address my earlier questions, perhaps a broader format is better, but this stream is staying alive. The questions are: is there ever a cause that a politician has, with whom you disagree about much, that you might partner with because the cause is a good one (I realize this sounds a bit John McCainish-read naive); second, is this cause-childhood obesity and the future health of the nation, a cause that merits more than individual behavior change focus (is it something worth getting the country to rally around) and third; should a church of any kind, much less one so influential, get behind any social movement, no matter its merits (certainly the church was central to civil rights, women’s suffrage, etc. - but what about the nation’s health not much partnering on tobacco). I would like to keep the line open with you all at least until after the Sunday service and my report about the feedback. At that point, it may be appropriate to go to a bigger format to engage more opinions from FR. Thanks all for your interest. As I think you can tell from this stream, NPCC members really do love their church and care about its influence and message.
Not if it contradicts the Bible.
is this cause-childhood obesity and the future health of the nation, a cause that merits more than individual behavior change focus (is it something worth getting the country to rally around) and third; should a church of any kind, much less one so influential, get behind any social movement, no matter its merits
The end does not justify the means. The cause is not the problem, the method to reach the cause (socialism) contradicts the Bible.
I have just reread your posts. 1) FLOTUS while in our pulpit: “institutional racism impacting poor populations.” This is not a person to be trusted with our pulpit. 2) Ray of Hope pastor’s was “very impassioned” in her intro of and Andy used “flattering words” about the movement. Two endorsements or validators in front of teens, both weilding “considerable influence” over youth, resulting in what? More voters for Obama in 2012? “You betcha!” 3) Did the event have merits for outreach? Short term maybe, but any convert is going to eventually come full circle to this question—can a validator of government ever truly be an effective validator of God again? Can they serve two masters? 4) Merit for national concern? Sure, in the same context as FAFSA tells High school seniors what their parents ought to contribute to their college. Used to be only rich kis expected not to have to work for their own college money, but the expectation set by FAFSA has changed all that as has obamacare changed their expectations for how long their daddy ought to provide health insurance. The message is like Hillary’s on spanking—sounds great for them to say while the police can use force whenever needed. The more govt sets expectations for our behavior in front of our kids, the less voice/authority we have with them ourselves. 5) NO the church should not partner with govt, especially a church known to be “apolitical” in our combined 16 years of attending.
Thanks all for your thoughts. A bit of clarification: Flotus did not say “institutional racism impacting poor populations” while in our pulpit, Ijust know a lot about the anti-obesity effort and know that to be an emerging focus within the health community and it is very frustrating. FLOTUS was very sanitized in her presentation as you would expect, but if you look at all the public health efforts including the emerging effort on obesity all are focusing on social justice and institutional racism as underlying causes for the disparities. The problem of course is that then every black and hispanic child and teen growing up comes to think of our nation as racist or at the very least uninformed, and it is insidious. The viewpoint becomes reality and it is to the point already where if you even argue about the causes you are racist. I have had many such conversations and have to proceed very carefully. I can’t imagine Andy or the leadership of the church is aware of any of this, but it is endemic within the public health and health disparities community and it will continue to make our country more polarized.
I hadn’t considered your other points which were very insightful about the implicit endorsement by Andy to all the children in the audience, and there were many from both churches. Great points! Also, I am not at all convinced that the (medical and other)elites who were in the audience will ever consider Christianity because of a nifty program, though they may want to come back, which is the church’s aim. But not to enough of an extent to merit the partnering.
Thanks for the clarification on what was said from the pulpit. Even still, she is not one I would ever trust in our pulpit. I’m beginning to rethink the whole “proud to take the good with the bad” statement. Your questions made me take a very hard look. You know a lot more about what’s going on with the health issues. That’s got to be fun to navigate. :(. Thanks for being on here. I hope others answer your questions.
I do not support Politics and Religion as a subject of discussion on a general basis, but this issue opened my eyes and you both gave me ideas to ‘mull over. Michelle Obama is a very Liberal, Political individual and she does not belong in a pulpit. ’ thanks again and continue to keep us updated...
carole
haircutter
I don't agree at all with those in the thread who feel that Andy has watered down the message of the Word. He does not preach in an expository way, for which he receives some criticism--but I certainly believe he hears from God and faithfully communicates the truth of Scripture.
I was surprised to hear about FLOTUS at NPCC. I don't trust her or her husband. The notion that the kids of our nation need to eat better and exercise more is very true--but I am not interested in the government stepping in to our lives even for this problem.
I believe that Andy sought the guidance and wisdom of the elders at NPCC before he said yes to FLOTUS. Though I don't know if it was the right decision, I will continue to listen to Andy as I see him seek God's will and preach the Word.
I will be very interested to hear your report of the discussion at NPCC today and in the days to come. Our enemy would love to disrupt the work at NPCC (and the other locations--our son at UGA attends Athens Church). We need to pray that does not happen.
Thanks again for your report.
I thought perhaps that the Atlanta Falcons were starting practice early this year. Anybody know what position she plays?
Sesame sticks may have more to say if he attended Sunday. Thanks DMD25. I agree that Andy is unique and in fact would add to that extraoridnary as a teaching pastor and I have found very little in the 10 years with which I disagree, especially related to his message in the service. Decisions like inviting FLOTUS are so difficult, and as I said I appreciate that the church up until now has remained apolitical. To the report: I asked all the people around me (imagine six people adjacent in every direction) whether they heard about and then whether they had attended. Members had heard, one had attended. Non-members (two older adults visiting with their son in his 40’s-roughly my age) hadn’t heard but were impressed, even while stating they hadn’t voted for Obama - they keyed in on the health threat of the message and weren’t politically put off as I and many on this website may be - it was a non-issue from that standpoint. Most thought it was a positive,even when I voiced some concerns we’ve shared here.
When the service started during the announcements, one of the associate pastors (not Andy) did mention it in what was most likely an explanation to address those who had voiced concern. He explained the rationale being that many in the audience were non-church goers and it was a significant outreach opportunity and he highlighted the hour long program with music, and the taped announcement from Brenda Wood (a local NBC anchor (African American) who attends NPCC at the buckhead campus) that described the church and its mission. The host then explained that he an many others on staff met people after the event who didn’t attend church and who hadn’t heard of NPCC but might come back. He asked for a show of hands if people were visiting (as a way to acknowledge them) and several hands (10-15 out of the whole crowd I could see) did go up.
That was about it, as far as discussion of the visit. What occurred to me as a result of this whole event is that the church is trying to reach all people, not just conservatives (that may seem like a no-brainer, but what I mean is they’re not using a political lens, while I am) and if for the purpose of discussion 20 people come to Christ as a result of this event, but the church has inadvertently endorsed FLOTUS (and by extension her husband) so that POTUS and FLOTUS become more popular and manage to gain more of the popular vote as an indirect result, is that a fair trade?
More to the point, does my mission as a Christian or my patriotic concern for the demise of America come first as my duty? That is only a rhetorical question, but the example I created is not completely out of the realm of reality, given the influence of NPCC.
I will conclude by saying the message was awesome! Andy has talked about Galatians chapter 5 many times in the church, and he visited it again in the message, but in the context of the early first century church and how timeless the acts of the sinful nature (human nature) remain. In recounting and explicating the acts of the sinful nature, he went much further than Rick Warren and certainly Joel Olsteen ever do, but in a way that reflected humility and empathy for our fallen condition. It was classic Andy and those who put NP in the same group as Joel Olsteen are not listening often enough (no offense to members of Olsteen’s church, just a different intent of the message). What I have loved and continue to love is that Andy’s message compels us to bring our christian beliefs and behaviors into every day (as he says - how we act on Monday through Saturday) to serve as an example of why the Christian life is exceptional and worthy of following. Andy has always and continues to do that better than any I have ever seen.
While I must ultimately disagree with the invitation to FLOTUS, I do not think it has done irreparable harm to NPCC or its message. Thanks to all, for your concern. And I encourage you to listen to the messages, ether as podcasts, or by downloading them to ipod or mp3. They will speak to you and improve your life. Please visit them at:
www.northpoint.org/messages and click on the big CHURCH album cover to view the current series(that will make sense when you get there), or scroll across the covers to view many of the past messages. If you want a terrific description of how Islam, Judaism, and Christianity merge around Abraham, and separate because they are incomplete of inadequate (including the out-of context reference from and earlier post-er)and would like one of the clearest descriptions of Mohammed I have ever seen, you can view or listen to “The Star, the Cross and the Crescent”. It is four parts and the first two are historical, and the third is a converted Jew’s testimony (great story) and the fourth is a converted Muslim’s story (also great). Thanks all.
I am not impressed by a show of hands of 10-15 people as proof of a successful outreach program for a church that boasts 20,000 people weekly; that’s the norm for visitor numbers if not a lot less and makes me feel even our newbies are being USED.
Andy, by his own words, condemns what he allowed. The entire second half of his sermon from Feb 6 can easily be said to be slanderous of all who might oppose him on this. Even so, he paraphrased his talk about what laws, of the 613, James said must be followed by the new converts by saying “they ought to abstain from offending Jews and from sexual immorality.” The Online Free Dictionary by Farlex states the definition for sexual immorality as: “the evil ascribed to sexual acts that violate social conventions” and lists as as example this statement: “Sexual immorality is the major reason for last year’s record number of abortions.” Andy also used as his examples of inclusivity Jesus going to the house of a tax collector and about His socializing with an adulteress — note neither example has Jesus lending the synagogue podium to the adulteress or tax collector for their own purposes nor does either example have Jesus promoting those purposes on the synagogue website.
Not only was the pulpit handed over to a politician, it was handed over to a pro-abortion politician. Not only was the pulpit used by a sexually immoral politician as define by modern-day standards, it was used to say we can beat obesity ourselves—no God needed. Reports on the event nor the Let’s Move website point others to Christ as hope for change. Reports and the website, do however, continually promote the size of our church as validation for her program.
I am Not, I so appreciate your update. I was not able to be there yesterday. Like you, I have appreciated Andy’s accuracy and lack of arrogance in the past. I wish you well, and thanks again for the update.
First, let state: I did not have the time to read all the posts. However, as a regular attender of NPCC/Buckhead CC, I want to chime in:
I wonder if there would be this much discussion if this event had been for Laura Bush and her reading initiative. I doubt it.
I tend to agree with Andy and the elders decision, not only because I trust them, but because I trust God. How many of these posts have stated that a large part of the crowd were people who never attended church? These are the people NPCC was created to reach. (i.e. Create an environment to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.) Add into the mix that FLOTUS got to spend time with Andy Stanley and I believe it was the right decision.
NPCC and it’s affiliates are one of the most influential churches in the U.S. (and hence, the world). God is changing lives everyday through the works of NPCC. I believe that NPCC and a handful of other biblically based non-denominational churches are on the leading edge of a worldwide revival.
The decision to let the FLOTUS speak about childhood obesity is no reason to dismiss NPCC. I trust that whatever God had in mind by bringing the FLOTUS to NPCC, He got it right. That is exactly where she needed to be.
I don’t look at it as them invading our churches; I believe our churches are invading them! (Watch the message from 2/13/11 to see what I mean: http://www.northpoint.org/messages)
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