Posted on 12/26/2010 7:10:10 PM PST by US Navy Vet
YOURS, it is obvious, is based on hate and ignorance.
You have responded to ONE example, out of many, because you find it the easiest to attack -—
And even then, your attack is weak.
MOST WHO COULD READ, IN THE EARLY CHURCH, COULD READ LATIN!
BOOKS, OF ANY TYPE, WERE RARE AND EXPENSIVE, BEFORE THE PRITNING PRESS.
HOWEVER, MANY NATIVE LANGUAGE TRANSLATIONS OF THE BIBLE WERE AVAILABLE LONG BEFORE THE REFORMATION!
None of this do you even try to refute?
Hate requires ignorance.
You display both.
ping
It was an ORAL TRADITION, that the Jews in Jesus’ Day, observed.
Yes, they had hard copies of the scriptures, but MOST OF THE TIME IT WAS SPOKEN AND LISTENED TO, NOT READ!
That, of course, was the entire purpose of the Temple and later the physical buildings of the Church:
Scripture and BIBLES WERE HARD TO COME BY, and it was far more efficient for ONE Bible to serve as the text to be READ to many!
HUH?
You don’t even know your history well enough to argue any of these points.
What does the word “Catholic” mean?
It means “UNIVERSAL” of course, since the Catholic Church was the ONLY Christian faith prior to the Great Schism.
How is it that Rome has in the Vatican Museum the largest collection of Christian manuscripts in the world, only challenged by those manuscripts held by the Eastern Church?
Yes, I display hate...by pointing out that the Catholic Church did NOT translate the scriptures into English and teach them...but that is truth, not hate.
The link I provided covered various partial translations made prior to Wycliffe. Around 990, the Gospels were translated - that was probably the biggest and most significant attempt.
Wycliffe and his associates translated the entire Bible into English, and made and distributed copies, while in danger of arrest and death. They succeeded in greater measure than many realized:
“The association between Wyclif’s Bible and Lollardy caused the kingdom of England and the established Roman Catholic Church to undertake a drastic campaign to suppress it. In the early years of the 15th century, Henry IV (De haeretico comburendo), Archbishop Thomas Arundel, and Henry Knighton (to name a few) published criticism and enacted some of the severest religious censorship laws in Europe at that time. Even twenty years after Wycliffe’s death, at the Oxford Convocation of 1408, it was solemnly voted that no new translation of the Bible should be made without prior approval. However, as the text translated in the various versions of the Wyclif Bible was the Latin Vulgate, and as it contained no heterodox readings, there was in practice no way by which the ecclesiastical authorities could distinguish the banned version; and consequently many Catholic commentators of the 15th and 16th centuries (such as Thomas More) took these manuscript English bibles to represent an anonymous earlier orthodox translation. Consequently manuscripts of the Wyclif Bible, which when inscribed with a date always purport to precede 1409, the date of the ban, circulated freely and were widely used by clergy and laity.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wycliffe%27s_Bible
“Catholic Church killed people who tried to do just that”.
Well documented and horrifying.
I wish people of all religions would look at one thing. (Absolute power corrupts absolutely). No matter where it is found. Church, Governments or Corporations un-checked.
All church goers much be vigilant in seeking truth and to not be blinded by titles or brands. You cannot fix that which you refuse to see broken.
“It was an ORAL TRADITION, that the Jews in Jesus’ Day, observed.
Yes, they had hard copies of the scriptures, but MOST OF THE TIME IT WAS SPOKEN AND LISTENED TO, NOT READ!”
Please give the caps lock a rest...and notice the disciples were able to quote the scriptures. That means that fishermen in 30 AD knew many passages verbatim...so yes, it could have been done for the next 2000 years, if the organized church had chosen to do so.
It wasn’t inability, but lack of desire.
So what!!! Neither means anything if they do not read,memorize it(Hide it in their heart),and obey and meditate on it.
If it cleans you,encourages you to live a godly live, then you will be a living testimony to its worthiness!
The Lord told me years ago(1962-1963) why do you defend the Bible, you have not read it. I thought to myself, well I have started to, beginning in Genesis, I quit before I got through the genologies. Later I started in Matthew, again I quit before I got through the genologies.
A little later it seemed the Lord said: “You have not even read one booke of the Bible have you.” I admitted, i had not. Then the Holy Spirit seemed to ask: “Have you even read one full chapter through?” I said to myself: “I not sure that I have.”
I purposed to go home and read one book all the way through; and I did! That totally revolutioned my life.
“Wherewithal shall a young man clease his way? By taking heed thereto according to Thy word. With my whole heart have I thought Thee; O let me not wander from Thy commandments. Thy Word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee.” (Psalm 119:9-11)
Amen! I agree! After over 57 years of research and study.
Love one ministry’s statement of faith that said: “The only infalible intpretation of Scripture, is Scripture itself.”
Are you serious? You do realise that the LXX was a terrible translation, almost a paraphrase in some places. The LXX Daniel was so pitiful that it actually had to be RE-translated in the 2nd century AD, just to make it comprehensible.
Though frustration with corruption within the Church can be understood, it is also clear that Wycliffe, himself, was a heretic. What BIBLICAL foundation can you find, for ALL of Wycliffe’s attacks against the Catholic Church?
More to the point: WHERE DOES THE BIBLE CLAIM THE AUTHORITY, TO ITSELF, THAT YOU TRY TO GIVE TO THE BIBLE?
Where does the Bible claim the authority, unto itself, that Wycliffe gives to the Bible? There was a Christian Faith for nearly 400 years BEFORE there was a Bible. Many true Christians died without ever even seeing a Bible, in their lifetimes!
Who are YOU to say a Christian must observe YOUR version of the Bible, when the first several centuries of Christians did not even have such a tool to use, for their faith? All they had were individual manuscripts, spread all over Christenom, at the time.
Another good read:
The Errors of John Wycliffe
as proclaimed by THE COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE 1414-1418
Session VIII, May 4, 1415.
[Condemned in Council and by the Bulls “Inter Cunctas” and “In eminentis” Feb. 22, 1418.]
1. In the sacrament of the altar the material substance of bread and likewise the material substance of the wine remain.
2. In the same sacrament the accident of the bread do not remain without a subject.
3. In the same sacrament Christ is not identically and really with His own bodily presence.
4. If a bishop or priest is living in mortal sin, he does not ordain, not consecrate, nor perform, nor baptize.
5. It is not established in the Gospel that Christ arranged the Mass.
6. God ought to obey the devil.
7. If man is duly contrite, every exterior confession on his part is superfluous and useless.
8. If the pope is foreknown and evil, and consequently a member of the devil, he does not have power over the faithful given to him by anyone, unless perchance by Caesar.
9. After Urban VI no one should be received as pope, unless he live according to the customs of the Greeks under their laws.
10. It is contrary to Sacred Scripture that ecclesiastical men have possessions.
11. No prelate should excommunicate anyone, unless first he knows that he has been excommunicated by God; and he who so excommunicates becomes, as a result of this, a heretic or excommunicated.
12. A prelate excommunicating a cleric who has appealed to the king, or to a council of the kingdom, by that very act is a traitor of the king and the kingdom.
13. Those who cease to preach or to hear the word of God because of the excommunication of men, are themselves excommunicated, and in the judgment of God they will be considered traitors of Christ.
14. It is permissible for any deacon or priest to preach the word of God without the authority of the Apostolic See or a Catholic bishop.
15. No one is a civil master, no one a prelate, no one a bishop, as long as he is in mortal sin.
16. Temporal rulers can at their will take away temporal goods from the church, when those who have possessions habitually offend, that is, offend by habit, no only by an act.
17. People can at their will correct masters who offend.
18. The tithes are pure alms and parishioners can take these away at will because of the sins of their prelates.
19. Special prayers applied to one person by prelates or religious are not of more benefit to that person than general (prayers), all other things being equal.
20. One bringing alms to the Brothers is excommunicated by that very thing.
21. If anyone enters any private religious community of any kind, of those having possessions or the mendicants [beggars / Friars], he is rendered unfit and unsuited for the observance of the laws of God.
22. Saints, instituting private religious communities, have sinned by instituting them.
23. Religious living in private religious communities are not of the Christian religion.
24. Brothers are bound to acquire their food by the labor of hands and not by begging.
25. All are simoniacs who oblige themselves to pray for others who assist them in temporal matters.
26. The prayer for the foreknown is of avail to no one.
27. All things happen from absolute necessity.
28. The confirmation of youths, ordination of clerics, and consecration of places are reserved to the pope and bishops on account of their desire for temporal gain and honor.
29. Universities, studies, colleges, graduations, and offices of instruction in the same have been introduced by a vain paganism; they are of as much value to the Church as the devil.
30. The excommunication of the pope or of any prelate whatsoever is not to be feared, because it is the censure of the Antichrist.
31. Those who found cloisters sin and those who enter (them) are diabolical men.
32. To enrich the clergy is contrary to the rule of Christ.
33. Sylvester, the Pope, and Constantine, the Emperor, erred in enriching the Church.
34. All of the order of mendicants [beggars / Friars] are heretics, and those who give alms to them are excommunicated.
35. Those entering religion or any order, by that very fact are unsuited to observe divine precepts, and consequently to enter the kingdom of heaven, unless they apostatize from them.
36. The pope with all his clergy who have possessions are heretics, because they have possessions; and all in agreement with these, namely all secular masters and other laity.
37. The Roman Church is the synagogue of Satan, and the pope is not the next and immediate vicar of Christ and His apostles.
38. The decretal letters are apocryphal and they seduce from the faith of Christ, and the clergy who study them are foolish.
39. The emperor and secular masters have been seduced by the devil to enrich the Church with temporal goods.
40. The election of the pope by cardinals was introduced by the devil.
41. It is not necessary for salvation to believe that the Roman Church is supreme among other churches.
42. It is foolish to believe in the indulgences of the pope and bishops.
43. Oaths are illicit which are made to corroborate human contracts and civil commerce.
44. Augustine, Benedict, and Bernard have been damned, unless they repented about this, that they had possessions and instituted and entered religious communities; and thus from the pope to the last religious, all are heretics.
45. All religious communities without distinction have been introduced by the devil.
Why do you try to put sinful/devout intent to the hundreds-of-years old dispute between rulers that you call the Reformation? Henry and Elizabeth were mainly interested in confiscating or controlling the wealth the Church had amassed in the centuries it had been in England. They put to death as many “heretics” as Rome or Spain ever did.
So, you attack the Catholic Church, now, for not writing, editing or publishing a “Blble” earlier than it did?
Where did Jesus ORDER a “Bible” to be written?
Can you find THAT in scripture?
And, if Jesus never ordered a Bible to be written, and if none of the original Apostles ever ordered a Bible to be written -—
Isn't the Bible, itself, not “Biblical”???
You are absurd!
Yes I knew: But the Romans were not exactly freinds of the Jew nor the Church!
But I do know this, from my life experience with Romans Catholics: Even their children cursed the worse, cursed the loudest, they owned all the beer joints and liquor stores in our town. I never had a Roman catholic tell me the love of God. They seem to glory and have pride in their bigger and richer church. Now that is not love and spirit of Christ!
I’m sorry, and that is not an attack, but it is a fact!
Oh if only the Vulgate had REALLY REALLY influenced the Catholic church....(wistfully sighing)
I completely understand that the Church has often lost its way.
Just like the Hebrews in the desert, huh?
The answer is not a complete rewriting of the Faith.
Let your own words inform you as to the history of the written Text.
Yes, the Romans, and others, were no friends of the Jews or of Christians.
This is part of the reason that manuscripts were so protected. They were often burned and destroyed by enemies.
The other reason is that manuscripts were very, very rare until the printing press.
And to you sir! so is protestant bashing also!
But I’m not neither! By the gift of the grace of God in the Lord Jesus Christ my Saviour, I’m a Christian, not by man, nor of man, but of God!
The word Christian is only found in the Bible, that is the Holy Scriptures, three times.
First in Acts 11:26, When they were called Christians; then in Acts 26:28, when Agrippa said: “Almost thou persuadeth me to be a Christian.” And last in 1 Peter 4:16; “If any man suffer as a christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.”
Now there is a message for us all, from the Lord Himself.
Had the church wanted common folk, at least the ones who could read and write, to read the Bible, copies could have been made available for anyone to copy and pass them on. The church and the powers that be wanted common folk stupid and ignorant...kind of a reverse garden of Eden in which the word of God was deliberately kept from those seeking God’s abundant eternal life.
Thank God for the invention of the printing press!
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