Posted on 12/23/2010 6:59:32 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
What a great ally.
I sure am glad we shipped all those jobs, all that technology, and all that money over to a country that is playing footsie with a totalitarian state hellbent on destroying our country.
I serious believe that Indians are looking for a way out of their “treaty” with the Russians. India is unhappy with Russian sloppiness in handling large projects, like refurbishing an unfinished Cold War era carrier. This project has been a financial disaster for India.They have been buying from the West and they are starting to know thw difference.
LOL. Where are they going?:) Who else is to offer them a technology to build a 5gen aircraft or lease them a nuke sub?
We are offering Israel,South Korea,Singapore,possibly Taiwan,and Japan the F-35. Why not India.
Why not have Germany build them subs. They build them for many nations most notably Israel.
I also forgot we are selling F-35 for Turkey
They will be jointly developed and manufactured in India (adding to their own expertise).
The Russians make damn good airframes and engines. They know how to build fast, agile aircraft.
They will be better than anything China has...or even has on the drawing board.
They will cost 1/2 as much as a F-35...but the F-35 was never offered. The US offered the Su8per Hornet and the Strike Eagle. Both good aircraft but not the deal India was hoping for.
Correction: We DID offer the F-35 but India said it was too expensive.
What a great ally.
I sure am glad we bought all that military equipment (more than $2bn in the last year alone and will buying billions more soon), cross-trained soldiers with a country (US) that is playing footsie with a totalitarian state (pakistan) hellbent on destroying our country (India).
See how easily US fits the same profile for India?
May I ask how many billions US has sent in military aid to pakistan in last decade since 9/11 and how many more billions it has pledged to send to a terrorist state that not only sends savage killers like those involved Mumbai 26/11 attacks but also kills US/NATO soldiers in Afganistan? Selling F-16s in the name of war on terror is not just short-sighted but outright foolish. Before you point fingers at others, look what your country is doing!
Atleast Russia is not a failed state that supports terrorism worldwide while pakistan is exactly that. We (Indians) can sleep at night peacefully thinking we are not funding a terrorist state that produces terrorists that killed hundreds of innocent people around the world. Can you?
PAKISTAN IS A US ALLY! Say it proudly, will ya! :roll eyes:
Ernst,
first of all a merry Christmas to you. Keep up the good work with the posts.
I think the issue is not whether the US can sell to them fighter jets, or whether Germany can build for them submarines. Looking at it logically, Russia is an ally for India that will remain so for the foreseeable future. Sure, there have been some issues (for instance the price increases of the aircraft carrier that was supposed to be a smooth deal, as well as price increases for the SU30MKI) ...BUT it has never been an issue of quality. True, many of the export versions of Soviet hardware sold to USSR allies in the 70s and 80s were basically monkey-model types, but if you look at what India has been receiving (e.g. the SU-30MKI, the MiG-29K naval variant, the joint work on the BRAHMOS, as well as what will become the FGFA/PakFa) the level of quality is easily among the top in the region. So the disagreements have not been due to issues of quality but rather negation of past price agreements.
Secondly, and this is important, Russia has always been a 'strings-free' kind of supplier (similar somewhat to France, and very different from the US). The last thing a sovereign nation needs is for high-technology equipment to not receive spares and the like because the State Department decided something 'naughty' had been done. Look at the case of Pakistan and its F-16s ...it finally got its 18 Vipers, but that is a long time after it was supposed to receive them. With India having a volatile blood-enemy (Pakistan) on the low-end, and on the high-end a real veritable threat (China, although at least it is not even a fraction as volatile as Pakistan is), it cannot afford for political ripples a continent away affecting its defensive reliability.
Third, you also have to consider what is on offer. Even if the offer of the F-35 to India was to be accepted by Delhi, and no political games slow down the process in the US, it would take quite a long time for the JSF to be in Indian colors operating off the sub-continent. Add the current issues affecting the F-35, and the countries that have been lining up before India, and it would be quite some time even if a deal was signed today. Furthermore, there would be ZERO transfer of technology (if the Brits and the Israelis cannot even get to muck about in its innards, it is highly doubtful the Indians would get the opportunity). However, with the PakFa prototype (the T-50 family that will spawn the final PakFa version and the FGFA variant), the Indians will not only get a 5th Generation fighter earlier, but they will also be able to 'enhance' it as they see fit (similar to how the SU-30MKI was augmented with Indian, French and Israeli avionics). Just as importantly, however, is the fact that the Indians will have active participation and elucidation on 5th generation fighter technology. Think about the ramifications of that to India's internal development! They would never get that from the F-35, even if it magically overcame all its cost and time-line issues.
Fourthly, and related to the above, what is offered by Russia is significantly more than what is offered elsewhere. For instance, sure Germany can build them submarines. Germany is one of the nations competing to provide India with its new set of advanced D-E submarines (with the other usual suspects the French and the Russians). However, the Russians also gave them an Akula class nuclear attack submarine (the Nerpa, now called the INS Chakra) on lease. This is a nuclear powered submarine capable of unleashing a cruise missile hellstorm, and perfect for enhancing India's capabilities against China. The equivalent to this would be for the US to provide India with a nuclear-powered attack submarine. We all know that would never happen ....not even an early-generation LA Class let alone later generation LA or the newer Virginia (even a gelded version). That lease has huge ramifications, not only in the more obvious capability gains, but also in terms of the work that India is doing to develop its own indigenous nuclear submarine technology (technology that is currently being tested in the ongoing sea trials of the indigenous Arihant nuclear sub). Germany builds VERY good AIP D-E submarines (arguably the best in the world), however they do not build any nuclear submarines and do not possess nuclear submarine technology. Russia does, and for the second time in India's history has leased a nuclear attack submarine to them.
Finally, note must be taken of the fact that Russia and India have to be together in light of the growing threat caused by an increasingly stronger China (ironically, this is the same reason that is pushing the US and India together). Furthermore, note some friction caused by the US'continued support of Pakistan, a quasi-failed state that (together with Saudi Arabia) is the leading supporter of terrorism in the globe. A country that is the leading fermentation ground for Madrassas in the world. A nation that was one of two supporters of the Taliban before GW smote those oafs after 9/11. A nation that exported nuclear weapons technology to North Korea via the A.Q. Khan network. And a nation that has supported and/or financed a whole number of terrorist action against India. The US has given a lot of weaponry to Pakistan, which directly threatens India. For instance, the 500 AMRAAMs given to Pakistan ....those directly threaten India and India only (unless Osama got some flying carpets). Furthermore, the AMRAAM sensor technology will definitely find its way to China now (Pakistan and China are the closest of allies), and that is another threat to India (and ironically, to the US once advanced AMRAAM sensor tech finds its way to the PL series).
Now, ties between India and the US will continue to grow stronger. There is already purchase of various types of weapons technology, such as the P-8I (a superlative piece of equipment which should really enhance India's anti submarine capability). Also, there is always a chance that the US may win India's MMRCA comeptition (the F-16 has ZERO chance ....it is a platform that has maxed virtually all its future growth potential; BUT the F/A-18E/F SuperHornet has a VERY good chance of winning). Already a GE engine related to one in the F-18 won the LCA engine competition against an (arguably superior) offering used in the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Thus, ties between India and the US will become much much stronger, and thus there will be some erosion into ties with Russia. However, there is NO WAY India will not be allied with Russia. They need each other in the face of an increasingly more powerful China.
When the US sells to India the F22 (and even allows them in the development cycle ...say for a future 6th gen fighter), or leases to India a nuclear attack submarine for a decade, etc, then ...maybe ....Russia's influence will wane. However, in terms of quality the Russians have really stayed true to India, with the only problem being the twin problems of over-reliance on one supplier, and price disagreements.
Ironically, the country that is most affected by increasing ties between the US and India is not Russia. It is Israel, which is another major supplier to India. With the US stepping in, the Indians can be able to go straight to Uncle Sam rather than relying on the Israelis to do something analogous. That is the country that will be most affected, not Russia.
Also, as long as Pakistan is a US ally, the whole 'India needs to dump the Russians' will always ring hollow in India.
Who gives a shit, dude?
India is part of the BRIC consortium...ALL COMMUNIST-RUN REGIMES.
We need to cut ties with India, stop sending jobs, stop helping them until they formally denounce being a part of an axis of three other nations hell-bent on destroying us.
India hasn’t formally defined anyone as an ally. They are probably better at maintaining the original intent of Thomas Jefferson’s ‘Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none.’
Not really. If they were following the Jeffersonian principle, they would not be practicing war games WITH the Soviets and the ChiComs. They would not be working with the Soviets and ChiComs to dump the US Dollar as the world’s reserve currency. If this happens, our economy is destroyed and it will launch the Western world into a massive global depression. India, China and the Soviets have a vested interested in bringing that about. But they will do so only when they are sure they are in a position to knock us off the hill and replace us. They are all working toward that position.
There is no doubt that India sees for itself a manifest destiny. Nehru’s first speech made on the eve of India’s independence (’Tryst with Destiny’) alludes to just that, rather plainly.
That said, India works for its own interests, in the foremost. The Russian partnership is seen as a hedge against the Chinese, as is the one with the US. Don’t be fooled by any thought of India seeing China as a friend.
India is seeing the shoddy work the Russians are producing and they are not liking it.
[”Not really. If they were following the Jeffersonian principle, they would not be practicing war games WITH the Soviets and the ChiComs. They would not be working with the Soviets and ChiComs to dump the US Dollar as the world’s reserve currency.”]
India does conduct war games with Russia but you really have to be joking when you suggest that India conducts serious war games with China. The only exercises so far with the Chinese have been PR events & nothing more. India won’t certainly be discussing strategy with her principal enemy. The country that India has carried out most war games with remains the U.S.. For its part the U.S. has carried out more exercises with India than with any one else.
Russian manufacturing quality is out of that problem.
Russia is still one of two World best sources of high technology.
Unlike another one, Russia is willing to share it’s technology with India.
It cost any flawed project they had with Russians.
Remember China. It went from an African style crap hole to industrial superpower by Russian advise and technology. It was just before it become financial superpower utilizing it’s new found industrial capabilities on American market.
Russian wants powerful India to counter China that is the reason why India is their de-facto # 1 partner since earlier 70s.
Russians were giving them Mach3 interceptors and nuke subs. All the stuff they are selling to Indians are their best non-downgraded like they are offering to China and Arabs.
US doesn’t have any clients that close not even Israel or Canada.
I bet Indians are thankful and won’t drop Russians under the bus too.
Russians have the worst technology.Signifant portions of the increases in Russia’s defense procurement budget are being eaten up by inflation: while the country’s overall inflation rate in 2008 was 13%, in certain weapon categories the figure was more than 30%. Many skilled workers are nearing retirement age, and young graduates are hesitant to enter the industry due to low wages and insufficient career opportunities. In 2009, a senior official said that the Russian defense industry had effectively “reached its ceiling” and could not take on any more orders. Further growth will require a serious upgrade of production facilities, as well as investment in skills and training. In 2009, a senior official said that the Russian defense industry had effectively “reached its ceiling” and could not take on any more orders,
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080109/95840754.html
http://www.swp-berlin.org/fileadmin/contents/products/research_papers/2009_RP12_kle_ks.pdf
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