Posted on 12/22/2010 9:37:01 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
“Have another beer.”
That is an accusation from one who doesn’t have an argument.
I know VT is in P’cola...I went through the training command with my husband. He was VA in CA, then was an instructor in VT-4.
“VS-41,30,28.
Catapult and Arresting Gear Officer aboard the good ship USS Saratoga.”
Thank you for your service. Were you a carrier qualified pilot? Were you ever an operational fleet pilot?
My foul mouth?
Another “argument” from one who doesn’t possess even a scintilla of an argument.
The most telling thing is that you didn’t dispute the very core of the disagreement we’ve had.
What years were you in? Were you a pilot and were you at war?
My husband was the nugget, too. ;o)
JacQ was boasting that the VN era pilots thought of airplanes as being “throwaway”. Maybe in your day it was, but not during the time that my husband was in the Navy.
Given what it took to get through flight school, and earn your wings...with many washouts during that time...and the fact that there were so many pilots that in my husband’s class of 44, only two got fleet seats.......my husband was one, and the other got east coast and a med cruise...it’s very hard for me to imagine such a cavilier attitude towards their planes.
They were, to the man, type A personalities, and would have been totally embarrassed to lose a plane. That is why McCain is such a joke to them.
I would very much like to know what years you were in, and what you flew. Saying it’s only illegal if you get caught applies to everything, IMO. So, what exactly did they mean by that?
I would certainly like to know the facts of what the Blues did, and if you have a link, I would be very interested to read it.
“Your foul mouth reflects a dull mind.”
That’s a funny accusation coming from one who was in the Navy, and was a carrier pilot.
And, a CAT officer?
I am a graduate of AOCS (Class 11-82). I earned my commission in April, 1982 and earned my Wings of Gold in July, 1983. I served 20 years as a pilot on the East Coast, West Coast and Guam. I did a tour in DC, am a plankowner of the USS Abraham Lincoln and never served in a shooting war.
In both flight school and my first two squadron tours had Vietnam era veterans who knew how to fly. A phrase I heard more than once was, “Do you want to see how we did it in the ‘Nam?” I was a white knuckle experience for me most of the time.
As far as the occasional thumping incident - if reported at all, they went skipper to skipper - no press necessary. I was the “victim” of a thumping incident when I was an SNA at Whiting Field. I was under the bag on an instrument hop when our trusty T-28 got thumped real good. It felt like we ran over a HUGE pot hole and it scared the crap out of me. My instructor - Major Ed Crews, USMC just laughed his rear end off, (he had two tours in country and was shot down more than once). Par for the course according to him.
As far as McCain goes, I think he was more of a victim of Washington’s tactical approach, rather than pilot error. I don’t know why your husband’s buddies would think he was a joke. Admiral Stockdale was shot down by his own wingman on a rocket run. I recall an article written by him saying it was dumb luck that got him shot down. Do they think he’s a joke as well?
Finally, as far as cavalier attitudes toward planes - the general thought when I was in was that when you fall from a particular height in a moving aircraft, the PK is 1. Therefore, don’t do anything intentionally that will cause you to mort yourself and your crew. One can look at the Mishap rate over time to see that it took a while for some to understand that.
Stretching the rules was not unusual in my time. Ask your Aviator husband if he ever heard the phrase, “if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying”. If he’s a TACAIR dude, he’s heard it more than once.
FYI - VS is in the TACAIR community and they do fly off carriers. 41 is the RAG and 30 and 28 are fleet squadrons. Ask your Aviator husband if you have any doubt.
Thank you so much for your reply. You put things into perspective for me. Apparently both of you were taught by VN era vets.
They appear to be old combat pilots...and I question if they were active combat...who were very eagar to, let’s say...embelish...their pilot street creds.
To be truthful, out of the many pilots we met from basic training and on, who ended up on many different bases, those who we were very close to, and those with whom we were simply aquaintances, broke bread with, were in my wedding...and continue to have a good friendship today... there were only two who continued their careers. Both retired as Admirals...the first has been a CNN military analyst, and the other ended up in DOD...he was a Mustang, and he was a Blue Angel. (You gotta love that!)
My husband got out in ‘76. Not just because Carter was going to be elected, but because the Navy went PC. To be honest, my husband scored best of his peers on every single fitness report except one. Then, he was second in a field of 23. (He didn’t tell me that until after he resigned his commission.) The guys who were plowbacks or flew desks after the training command were getting the fleet assignments. Apparently, it was “their turn.”
Frankly, the top 10% of the best pilots in the world got out at that time.
I’m sorry that you were a “victim” of a thumping. To think that you were a “victim” says a lot.
Did you ever think that, just maybe, it was part of your training? Sometimes more than “thumping” happens in the very blue skies over P’cola. Sometimes more than “thumping” happens in wartime. My husband’s second tour was as an instructor pilot and test pilot in VT-4.
As far as McCain is concerned, I’ll just say this...he is a war hero and I totally respect his conduct as a POW. However any pilot who lost as many planes as he did was not considered to be a candidate to return to the fleet, however he was given differential treatment.
Have you ever heard of McCain Field?
McCain being a “victim” of anything is hilarious. He is, and has been, nothing but an opportunist.
“if you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying”.
Dang straight they had to cheat. Do you know the history of TACAIR in Viet Nam?
Thank you, again, for your reply. I think I understand why you think the things that you do about NAVAIR in the Viet Nam era.
However, I would like to stress that, no matter what your VN era instructors told you.......that was not the case.
One more thing...WHY...if they were so good...did they end up as they did. The best got out when the getting was good.
I apologize...I failed to make my point. As the chief cook and bottle washer, I’m a tad tired after Christmas. ;o)
My point is that, depending on who gave you two these ideas about Viet Nam VETERAN pilots believing their aircraft to be throwaways, you need to know that the pilots who left in ‘76 were known as “second tour LTs”. They were in Viet Nam right out of the training command...there were weren’t many of them...and were finishing up shore duty in ‘76 when the new directives were known. (They were, effectively, the last class to see combat. On my husband’s first tour he was involved in Linebacker II, and I was part of the effort to welcome the POWs home.) These guys left the Navy in droves. In fact, when my husband resigned his commission, he was offered Lt. Cdr. two years early. He said no thanks. Being assigned to a boat instead of a squadron would have set his career back for years. Given the direction the Navy was going at that time, he didn’t want to take a chance.
“In both flight school and my first two squadron tours had Vietnam era veterans who knew how to fly.”
See...I have to wonder just who they were, and what experiences did they really have? They were Viet Nam ERA vets? But, they weren’t in Viet Nam?
So.......they know don’t what happened in Viet Nam?
I sincerely thank you both for your service, and for your replies to me. It’s been eye opening...
When one is in uniform, it is easy to distinguish who was in country vs who wasn’t. All we needed to see was a Combat Action Ribbon and an Air medal. Some of the pilots had more green time in their log books than we had in the Navy. We knew the distinction.
These men were fine officers and outstanding pilots.
Just read this reply.
Thumping was not and is not part of training. (I was an instructor pilot as well) The air in P’cola is bumpy enough in the summer. This particular incident was a flat hatting maneuver pure and simple and my instructor thought it was funny.
As far as the best pilots getting out, service members of all types and shapes get out after their initial commitment regardless of the era in which they served. It is expected and the Vietnam era was no exception. The retention rate in the VN era was higher for sure, but it did not hurt the Navy in the long run. In the air world, retention was and is a problem. That’s why bonuses were instituted in the early 80’s.
Your husband was a top 10%er. Congratulations. But, the way FITREPS went, just about every officer was in the top 10%. To be ranked lower than a 10% was to be considered a bottom feeder. FITREP grade inflation was around then and is around now.
My old man was a Vietnam veteran and stayed in. It was he and his fellow officers who guided the Navy through the Carter years, the Zumwalt era and the race riots. It was they who returned the US Navy into the finest Navy ever and brought about change, not those who got out.
Your husband noted the Navy was getting PC. My pop felt the same. He retired in 1979 and when I used to compare notes with him, he was shocked. “That’s not the way WE did it.” And when I got out, I thought the Navy had become too PC.
Just to clear one thing up...I said that the top 10% of the best pilots in the world got out at that time.
My husband was in the < top 1%...in the world. His peers retired as Admirals.
One thing was sure...the billets they were handing out to those who were the best of the best were black shoe billets.
Not exactly career enhancing, thus the exodus.
God bless your pop...please thank him for me.
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