Posted on 12/07/2010 8:13:52 AM PST by lbryce
Irving is a Nazi shill whose has been caught lying on history. Why should anyone trust what he wrote on the subject?
Quite possibly true. But I don't think there need be a conspiracy lurking behind the decision to do nothing. Beauracracy and incompetence are powerful enough without subversion.
But, as the receivers of that era were of superheterodyne design, their local oscillators radiated. Well-known those IF freqencies were detectable.
There seem to be several "authoritative" source having various, ispo facto, "According to ..."
What Irving had written was totally correct.
Of course, your mileage might vary.
Over the years additional materials seems to occur at some pace. All of this material goes in one direction.
A mea culpa for incompetence seems a very long time in coming.
But, perhaps.
True, but in this case the 'authoriative sources' happen to be primary source material from the attack planners themselves. See The Pearl Harbor Papers: Inside the Japanese Plans edited by Dillon & Goldstein.
Good luck arguing that one.
As they entered town, they noticed large crowds gathered around the corner drug stores, listening to the radio, but they thought it was a football game. When they got to the restaurant, the maitre de asked them if they shouldn't be getting back to base. When they asked him what he meant, he informed them of the attack.
Truly sorry to break the news.
Unfortunately his politics make his conclusions suspect. Particularly dicey is "Hitler's War," which despite a large amount of previously unpulished material IMHO contains much prosy sleight-of-hand intended to deflect blame away from Hitler. Also, "The War Between the Generals" is a mountain made of a most insignificant molehill and for my part was a waste of a good weekend. Moreover Irving did not help his reputation by acting like a total ass vis-a-vis the Lipstadt trial or by being a 9-11 "truther."
With Irving, your mileage does definitely vary. I find Trevor-Roper's astonishing "Hitler's Table Talk" to be far more valuable than anything Irving has ever had to say on his favorite topic.
As I said before, there is only ONE question that hasn't been satisfactorily answered - was there a 'winds execute' message transmitted to DC, but not passed on to area commanders, as claimed by the leader of Op‑20‑G, or not?
All the other stuff is so much 'grassy knoll' type speculation easily refuted.
In the tome At Dawn We Slept, (often ADWS) there is the comment that the only signaling AKAGI did was via signal lamp.
From my earlier posing in this thread is the reference to AKAGI heard on tactical circuits.
Signal lamps are not heard on tactical circuits - that is, radio circuits.
Another example, the comment of superlative scholarship in ADWS (published in 1981) does not mention the important Briggs interview released to the National Archive in 1979 - they missed it.
There are other examples ...
Fabricated? Shoddy? Dated?
But you might think I have an "Axe to Grind."
So, from Gannon's Pearl Harbor Betrayed: The True Story of a Man and a Nation Under Attack Page 323:
Note 56: ... comments on the Martin-Bellinger report ... Prange et. al., were what? Wrong. Was this by intent? Does that impeach Prange et al.
Or, Pineau (USN Retired, Japanese linguist for Morison) and co-author with Layton and Costello of And I Was There ... comments on Prange "methodolgy" at the end of that text.
So ... your pick.
I'm not saying the FDR adminstration was oblivious, on the contrary it was very much in FDR's policy interests that the Japanese 'make the first overt move'. I just don't think they were as on top of events as the revisionists think they were.
PHA_Part24_Page1750 (from SECRET Knox Report)
[Often called Knox Mid-Night Message, has quite a twisted path. This message is not be confused with the "RCA Message" issued by Marshall. The Knox warning has not yet been found; likely destroyed long ago.]
"A general war warning had been sent out from the Navy Department on November 27th, to Admiral Kimmel. General Short told me that a message of warning sent from the War Department on Saturday night at midnight, before the attack, failed to reach him unitl four or five hours after th attack had been made."
PHA_Part24_1753
[This gets to the claim of un-preparededness of Pearl Harbor. Lots of front-line equipment were priority to non-US force. Interesting path.]
"Of course, the best means of defense aginst air attack consists of fighters planes. Lack of an adequate number of this type of aircraft available to the Army for the defense of the Island, is due to the diversion of this type before the outbreak of the war, to the British, the Chinese, the Dutch, and the Russians.
The next best weapon against air attack is adequate and well disposed anti-aircraft artillery. There is a dangerous shortage of guns of this type on the Island. This is through no fault of the Army Commander who has pressed consistently for these guns."
And I Was There - Layton, Costello, and Pineau
Page 342:
[For those who have never a conspiracy.]
"Wilkinson recounted how he had been accompained by Captain McCollum to the munitions building where he found General Miles and Colonel Bratton already present in the boardroom. His digest of the evidence of the morning of 19 December suggest that there was a certain degree of collusion and deliberate misstatement in what appears to have been a collaborative effort by army and navy to convey the impression that no intelligence had been withheld from Admiral Kimmel or General Short."
A cynic might claim Greaves was too partisan to be a reliable source here, but he did attend the hearings. So I’ll check this one out.
A cynic might claim Greaves was too partisan to be a reliable source here, but he did attend the hearings. So I’ll check this one out.
The SS LURLINE is an interesting case, however.
So, how goes your understanding of radio wave propagation?
I do not believe the SS Lurline reliably pinpointed radiating superheterodyne oscillators from 1500 miles.
Pre-supposition at work?
I asked about your understanding of radio wave propagation.
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