Posted on 11/17/2010 7:01:28 AM PST by COUNTrecount
Not criminal but its easy to add the hiring company onto the civil lawsuit. They are responsible for hiring the company which conducts business unethically and illegally. I don’t think you have to prove intent for the illegal actions.
I also own a business. My customers are other businesses but they still fail to pay. I’ve learned to choose my customers more wisely and do checks on them before extending significant credit.
Well, first off, that’s why you hire an agency, and you don’t collect yourself.
Secondly, its attitudes like that that make me sick to my stomach. Sounds like your the sort of person who thinks its ok to not pay your bills, then litigate. I’ve run into that type before as well. I would never classify them as conservative, I would classify them as bottom feeders.
How about you just buy what you can afford, and pay your bill?
Oh, and I have been sued, and will be sued again, its part of the cost of doing business, and that cost is factored in to our pricing, which everyone pays for. But there are those who game the system, and make a living off of suing business owners, yet its the same ones who complain that it costs them $120 - $150 an hour to have a tradesman in their home.
I hope I interpreted your comment wrong, because the only thing I despise more than lawyers are those who use them to take advantage of others who provide an honest service.
“Well, first off, that’s why you hire an agency, and you don’t collect yourself.”
You’re still responsible for their actions and can be named on a suit.
“Sounds like your the sort of person who thinks its ok to not pay your bills, then litigate”
Sounds like you jump to assumptions and run your business very poorly. Those are typically classified as whiners who blame others for their problems.
I pay my bills. Not all my customers do which sometimes causes problems. Thats why I’ve gotten smarter about picking my customers.
“I hope I interpreted your comment wrong, because the only thing I despise more than lawyers are those who use them to take advantage of others who provide an honest service.”
AC contractors in Florida typically are not honest. The one who installed the AC in my house screwed up 32 houses who now have mold problems. He didn’t even try to fix the problem and won’t even return phone calls.
Not sure where you’re from and don’t care. Quit your whining and figure out how to fix your problem or find another line of business.
“Not criminal but its easy to add the hiring company onto the civil lawsuit. They are responsible for hiring the company which conducts business unethically and illegally. I don’t think you have to prove intent for the illegal actions.”
I’d like to see someone try and hold me responsible for 3rd party activity.
“My customers are other businesses but they still fail to pay. I’ve learned to choose my customers more wisely and do checks on them before extending significant credit.”
Here’s the problem we run into, many times, we are replacing a furnace or AC unit on an emergency basis (thats when they go out, in 110F or when its -20). We ask for 1/2 up front, to pay for the equipment. Usually folks pay that 1/2 with check or credit card. We call it in, either with Telecheck or verify the card. We don’t offer our own financing, but we do have banks that offer financing for commercial work, over say $20 grand.
Now, Telecheck or the credit card company approve the charge. We go buy the equipment, on our dime, because we won’t be paid that 1/2 for at least 30 days, even though they wrote a check, it won’t clear both banks, and depending on the credit card, it will be 45 days (American Express used to be up to 6 months and Discover is about the same, so we don’t use them anymore).
Now, we have at any given time, about $150,000 = $500,000 in accounts receivable out. We also know, that 1 in 25 homeowners are not going to make payment on time to their credit card or they will overdraft even though Telecheck has approved them.
Guess who foots the bill? Telecheck? the credit card company? Nope. Us. We eat it until they pay up. And in some cases, if they are disputing the charge, for whatever stupid reason they make up, we have to pay to open a dispute. Yeah, we eat that cost as well. Now, that doesn’t even take into part the 1/2 they still haven’t paid us. Sometimes, it can take us a year to get that money. In the mean time, we have accounts PAYABLE out there for the equipment we bought, often times, we have to go to our bank to loan us the money for that debt that we have, so we are paying interest on that debt as well.
After a year, you can bet that you will almost NOT get paid. So, we sell our debt off. We don’t actually HIRE an collection agency, we sell off our unpaid accounts receivable.
We get about 10% of the value, sometimes 20% depending on the risk factor. This covers our interest that we used to borrow to pay our suppliers and administration costs, plus the actual labor and employee costs of the job (maybe, sometimes).
At that point, the debt is no longer ours, but we have recouped some of our loss. Is our collection agency a douche bag? Probably. But its their debt at this point, not mine. I have nothing to do with it.
If it has taken you a year to pay up, I have to recoup some of my costs, and even 10% is better than nothing.
Now, I’d like to see someone come after me for selling my debt, its totally legal, and a common practice. What happens to those liabilities after they are sold off is not my concern.
As far as someone harassing you for debt that is not yours, I have not had that happen. But, I have had folks who owe us money, see the caller ID come up, and answer in a false accent, tell us so and so died, tell us they sold their home, whatever. I will try and be cool and collect ourselves in a civilized manner, but you would roll your eyes at some of the bullcrap people try and pull on you.
Like I said, we reckon about 1 of 25 homeowners is a scammer or just a plain old POS, and about 1/2 of all restaurant owners will jerk you to no tomorrow.
‘I’d like to see someone try and hold me responsible for 3rd party activity.”
Its done all the time. At the very least you will incur significant legal costs to defend your choice of collection companies.
You are the one who stated you don’t care if your vendors violate the law. And yet you complain about bottom feeders?
I don’t accept credit cards. Thats a business decision. If they want my services they pay a retainer and then as work is completed. Its either a wire transfer or check.
Uncollectable revenue is now 1-2% of total revenue. That cost is figured in my prices as a cost of doing business.
Banks are the worst customers IMO.
As far as IT consulting goes... law firms are the absolute worst. UGH!
“aw firms are the absolute worst.”
Ok ya got me there. I won’t even do business with them so that helps avoid them not paying the bill.
Friend of mine was not paid for work completed for a lawfirm. He sued and won. The judge told him that he’d never collect as the law firm would just keep tying it up in court.
“Its done all the time. At the very least you will incur significant legal costs to defend your choice of collection companies.
You are the one who stated you don’t care if your vendors violate the law. And yet you complain about bottom feeders?”
Like I said, we don’t employ anyone to collect our debts, we sell it off to a 3rd party.
Now, if I sell you a hammer, am I responsible for you hammering your neighbors car? You do with it what you want.
At one time we DID hire a collection agency, but the return was only a small percentage more on each claim, but with NO guarantee of the claim. The people we sell to varies, its whoever offers the highest rate, and we sell off usually 2x a year.
Very few small business can afford to do their own collections or hire an agency, most the folks I know through the chamber of commerce and our other business social networking just sell their debt off as an unfunded liability, but in some cases, we can sell it off as a secured liability (where equipment is involved) in which case we can get sometimes %22-%27 on the liability, but its still a guarantee, and it saves us litigation fees and general bad PR with the community. Once we sell the debt, the collector no longer collects in our name, they collect on their own name, and are required to represent themselves as such.
I know they have gone into restaurants and hotels and started dismantling freezers in the middle of the day with a sheriff in tow. The restaurant owner can scream and yell all he wants, he shouldv’e paid his bill.
I also know these agencies are there to put liens on homes, and when you go to sell your home, you will NOT get clean title, and then they tack on all sorts of fees. So, they get their money one way or another.
This IS within the law like it or not, but its dirty business, and something we want nothing to do with anymore, but still, I contend, I have no use for the scumbag who stiffs those he owes money to. I will work with anyone who TRIES to make payments, and we have done that, even if its $10 bucks a month, we will keep the account open, not charge interest (if its a likely story, such as a layoff or divorce, something like that), and not sell your debt, but if you are just a deadbeat, if you give us the runaround, if you start making up excuse after lame excuse then I drive by or one of my service trucks drives by your home and sees a new car, or you are using a landscaper or whatever, I will peg you as a scumbag ASAP (because the fresher the debt, the more they pay us for it), and sell it off.
Now, I’m not defending the collection companies, I am sure they study and get reports on the litigation costs to defend themselves versus various practices to get their money, so however they do it, it must work for them.
If you are getting harassed and you don’t owe anyone money, then by all means, you should retain council, but that is not what we are discussing, we are discussing deadbeats who refuse to pay and who game the system.
this is absolutely true in our business as well, we avoid doing work for lawfirms (rooftop or office heat and air) and homes of lawyers at all costs, or we high bid the job to double or more so they pick someone else.
also high on our list is restaurants of all sorts, chains included (mc donalds, etc), doctors offices, house flippers (not many of them any more), and certain ethnic groups will fight you just to fight you. not to sound racist, but if we do work for east indians, pakistanis, turks, or greeks (I know I have surely offended someone here) they will haggle you to death, and then haggle you AFTER the work is completed even if you have a contract, so we have to bill in an additional 20% or so, then when they haggle, we come down some (to our normal price) so they will be happy. I think it’s a cultural thing.
Also, some groups will be very educated when you do a service call or an install, they know what they want, they know the retail price of it, they know how long it should take to install, and they will pay that fair price (almost all Asians fall into this category), and we almost never have an issue with payment from them, once they agree to a price.
“Now, if I sell you a hammer, am I responsible for you hammering your neighbors car? You do with it what you want.”
Selling a debt is not the same as selling a hammer. Good luck with that practice though.
‘If you are getting harassed and you don’t owe anyone money, then by all means, you should retain council, but that is not what we are discussing, we are discussing deadbeats who refuse to pay and who game the system.”
Originally we were discussing collection companies which violate the law. You supported their illegal activities.
“Sounds like you jump to assumptions and run your business very poorly. Those are typically classified as whiners who blame others for their problems.”
I think your definition of poorly is much different then mine. We are the size we want to be, our employees are happy, and the owners are happy. We have a very high retention rate of customers, are rated A+ by the BBB, are rated A with our Chamber, and I would reckon 70% of our work is done through referral. We have not laid off any workers during this recession, we keep our guys working year round, though it is sometimes odd jobs, they always get a 40 hour paycheck. We are acknowledged donors to our local hospital, provide 3 scholarships a year, support 2 youth teams, and we house a boyscout troop.
Those are how I judge my business. You may judge it however you want, you may judge me poorly because I sell off my debt. Guess what, I’m a capitalist, I’m not a liberal, and I’m not in business to provide free services, get over it.
“AC contractors in Florida typically are not honest. The one who installed the AC in my house screwed up 32 houses who now have mold problems. “
I have to question your own intelligence at this point. Who would hire a contractor who screwed up 32 houses? Now, Florida from what I understand is a shamble state like LA when it comes to licensing. Our licensing here is very strictly regulated, we are all A Card Electricians, Licensed Plumbers, and Licensed and regulated for Heating and Air. We also have 2 licensed boiler repairmen, 1 has several certifications for his welding field, and is also a part time instructor for welding. Our tin-shop department has competed in numerous competitions, and usually scores in the top 5 (a very competitive field). We are all NATE certified, our apprentice is ICE certified, we are members of RSES and ASHRAE, and have to provide continuing college credits every single semester to retain those licenses. It sounds as if your state has licensing problems.
I say this, because it is best to research any contractor you are going to do business with. The main thing, is to look at years in business at a particular location. Also, look for the names on your little league or hockey league jerseys, those will often indicate a business that has been around awhile, and intends to stay around. Just some advice there on avoiding getting scammed by any contractor.
“Quit your whining and figure out how to fix your problem or find another line of business.”
If whining is wanting to get paid and not provide services for free to deadbeats, I guess I qualify. Color me guilty. You and Barak can build a utopia where all give according to their ability, and some take according to their need. Not me, I’m in business to make $$$$. Deal with it. You are corresponding with a capitalist.
“Selling a debt is not the same as selling a hammer. Good luck with that practice though.”
Again, I’m not sure what your beef is with me wanting to get paid for services and equipment rendered. Once again, I am baffled that you are inferring I should just eat my losses to “be a good sport” or whatever you are getting at. I’m sorry, but you and Pelosi will have to force me to give up my profits by law. As it stands, selling debt is legal, it is a common practice, and it is one of the most efficient ways to recoup SOME of your expenses.
Those who buy my debt, cannot put a lien on the wrong property, they cannot remove the wrong refrigeration equipment from a mistaken restaurant, they cannot sue a motel to recoup the cost of their heating equipment, unless a judge OK’s it. There are no mistaken identities, though many try and game the system, especially by filing chapter 11 or chapter 13. Either way, those collectors will get their money in ways that I cannot. For some reason, you don’t like this practice.
“Originally we were discussing collection companies which violate the law. You supported their illegal activities.”
No, we were discussing methods of collection that some find offensive. Not illegal, and my earlier posts pointed directly at deadbeats who purposely game the system. You find that unfair, and you think its OK for folks to ‘screw’ business. Why? I’m not sure, but maybe you belong at a hippy rally protesting against the business man who is ‘raping America’ or a union rally, because you truly are not a capitalist, your comments are socialist, and you are siding over and over again with those who fail to pay their debts, and you think their obligation ends, while the business owner should just “suck it up”.
Its no wonder our nation is in the shape its in. Everyone is entitled to their pie right? Except business, we are supposed to work for free, and make money out of rainbow juice and unicorn sprinkles...
Give me a break.
You stated you are in business, I see that is consulting, good thing, because you have no idea what financing equipment costs, you probably work for yourself, so you have no idea how to run a payroll, how to provide insurance and 401 for a group of people, how to insure vehicles, how to cope with increasing liability every year, licensing, advertising, dealing with the public, the list goes on and on. Whining? Not at all, I love my work, I just hate dead-beat socialists who think the mom and pop businesses of this country are evil, and its OK to screw them over.
In addition to lawyers, I am thinking I will have to add ‘consultant’ to my list of folks to ask for cash upfront from if you are any indication of your profession.
“Originally we were discussing collection companies which violate the law. You supported their illegal activities.”
Oh, and by the way, research is your friend, not only when picking a contractor (who screwed up 32 homes), but when spouting off about subjects here on FR.
It is not illegal as you previously advised someone, to contact a 3rd party, they can do so to get your personal information, address, phone numbers, etc., though it may be embarrassing, and that is usually the intent I reckon.
Link here:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre18.shtm
Got a problem with those laws or the interpretation? Change them. Also, while your at it, you should work towards better licensing in FLA, I just briefly looked into it, and it is almost non-existent.
But what do you care about whats legal, right?
No actually I have about 25 employees. I see why you are having trouble in your business.
good day sir
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