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Arizona Pastor's Worry: Criminalization of Ministry Work (because of state's new immigration law)
Christian Post ^
| 05/26/2010
| Michelle Vu
Posted on 05/27/2010 2:13:24 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
We dont ask people for their documents to come hear about Jesus, said Ian Danley," They must have heard about Jesus somewhere because so many are named after him.
21
posted on
05/27/2010 2:46:09 PM PDT
by
Enterprise
(Dan Rather said Obama is so incompetent he couldn't sell watermelons.)
To: Anti-Utopian
I've never seen anything in the Bible that would indicate Christians should ignore "unjust" laws
Common sense tells you that not all government are righteous. For instance, In the book of Exodus, God blessed the Egyptian women who DISOBEYED the Pharoah's law to kill Hebrew babies. See Exodus 1:8-20.
See also Acts 5:17-29. Peter told the Sanhedrin who told them to stop preaching the gospel ( the Sanhedrin was was the high court of ancient Israel ) : "We must obey God rather than man.". The principle is there.
If the 10 Commandment tells you that you should not murder, and your state tells you BY LAW that you should help them do it (As in Nazi Germany), then you are frankly in a dilemma. You either obey God's laws or disobey state laws but you cannot obey both. Peter's response in such situations : WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MAN (Acts 5:29).
THAT is exactly what many Christians like Corrie Ten Boon faced during the second world war.
To: WOBBLY BOB
I heartell that Jesus exists in Mexico too. Show them the way Pastor, the direction is SOUTH.
To: SeekAndFind
Well, the general principle is there are just laws and there are unjust laws. The church is NOT supposed to help the government enforce unjust laws ( e.g., give up or tell on Jews because Nazi Germany laws require citizens to do it ). Your analogy is flawed. No one is persecuting Mexicans. The US has a reasonable and just immigration law. It needs to be enforced. Superficial, feel-good Christians think they are being pious by helping people to break a just and reasonable law.
And Mexicans come her thinking they have a right to other people's hard earned money through welfare or just showing up at a hospital and expect others to pick up the tab. In addition there is the vast amount of crime Mexicans are committing, from petty theft to rape to murder. I think it would be getter if Mexicans began to respect the just laws of this land. And better yet if they returned to Mexico and worked to make the hell-hole they came from a better and more just place to live in.
24
posted on
05/27/2010 2:50:37 PM PDT
by
stripes1776
("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
To: SeekAndFind
This is ridiculous. Mr. Danley seems to be so concerned because he's obviously ministering to a lot of illegal aliens who are committing a crime by residing in the U.S. without bothering to go through legal immigration channels.
Our immigration laws are perfectly reasonable. The illegal immigration problem has been allowed to get totally out of control due to a deliberate lack of federal enforcement. The new Arizona law that this man is so worried about is hardly draconian and as many have noted, simply mirrors federal immigration law in many respects.
If Ian Danley is working with and transporting people he knows are here illegally, he should simply stop. I suspect that Mr. Danley has chosen to minister to illegal aliens. That is his choice and I'm sure he feels morally justified in doing it. However, the Arizona law in question is hardly unjust and Danley is wrong to consistently break it based on some misplaced empathy for those that chose to enter and reside in the U.S. illegally. His concerns are misguided and based on a flawed moral premise.
25
posted on
05/27/2010 2:52:29 PM PDT
by
Jim Scott
(re much)
To: SeekAndFind
And I’ve never heard of the police pulling people off the church bus and handing them over to ICE. Again, when it happens, get back to me.
Mexico is in the process of imploding. There was never a better time for churches to partner with Mexican churches and to seed and grow churches in Mexico, most especially if your town is within a couple hours of the border. Mexico has become a mission field. You probably have people in your congregation capable of being your Mexico team, or teams plural.
And when and if members of your congregation get deported, or members of their family are deported, again, this is another opportunity to use that to advantage, helping them get re-situated in their home town and then through them working to start a congregation in that area.
The law is not unjust, it is not unlike similar laws the world over.
26
posted on
05/27/2010 2:52:44 PM PDT
by
marron
To: SeekAndFind
When did men of the cloth stop being willing to go to jail for what they believe? Or could it be that these guys really don’t believe what they are doing is “the right thing to do” in spite of the law.
Oh, you mean they just don’t want to follow Saint Paul’s example and go to jail?
27
posted on
05/27/2010 3:06:50 PM PDT
by
MIchaelTArchangel
(Obama makes me miss Jimmah Cahtah!)
To: SeekAndFind
A Phoenix-based youth pastor is worried that his ministry could face legal troubles under Arizonas new immigration law. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
I don't care what costume the lawbreakers are hiding behind; if they are breaking the law, which they obviously intend to do, they need to be prosecuted.
28
posted on
05/27/2010 3:07:34 PM PDT
by
meadsjn
(Sarah 2012, or sooner)
To: SeekAndFind
We dont ask people for their documents to come hear about Jesus, said Ian Danley, youth pastor at Neighborhood Ministries He shouldn't have to. That little detail should have been taken care of already at the border/entry point.
29
posted on
05/27/2010 3:19:06 PM PDT
by
Alex Murphy
(Pretentiousness is so beneath me.)
To: Anti-Utopian; SeekAndFind
Any law that prohibits what God commands, or commands what God prohibits, is an unjust law. We are obliged by God to disobey such laws.
That's why some people in the Bible are commended for breaking certain laws (e.g. the Egyptian midwives.)
30
posted on
05/27/2010 3:24:18 PM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
To: SeekAndFind
They need to quit whining and build a church in Mexico.
31
posted on
05/27/2010 3:25:16 PM PDT
by
nolongerademocrat
("Before you ask G-d for something, first thank G-d for what you already have." B'rachot 30b)
To: SeekAndFind
Oops, I see you answered that question. Glad to see we both had the same answer!
32
posted on
05/27/2010 3:26:58 PM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
To: SeekAndFind
Just think, Reverend, you’ll be able to evangelize to plenty of people in jail when you get there.
To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..
34
posted on
05/27/2010 3:51:05 PM PDT
by
HiJinx
(~ Illegal is a Crime, it is not a Race ~)
To: SeekAndFind
“Under the legislation, immigrants in Arizona are required to carry their alien registration documents at all times or face possible arrest”
This ‘reporter’ needs to check 8 USC 1034(e) resident aliens are required to carry thier I-511 (green card) at all time.
Been that way since, what, 1940?
35
posted on
05/27/2010 5:21:01 PM PDT
by
ASOC
(Things are not always as they appear, ask the dog chasing the car)
To: stripes1776
Your analogy is flawed. No one is persecuting Mexicans.
I made no flawed analogy. My argument is this -- THERE ARE CASES WHERE THERE ARE UNJUST LAWS WHERE CHRISTIANS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DISOBEY THEM.
Look at my previous posts in this thread and ask yourself if I ever insinuated that our immigration laws are unjust laws. I never did.
To: SeekAndFind
Arrest them and strip them of their tax exempt status.
37
posted on
05/27/2010 5:48:28 PM PDT
by
dalereed
To: SeekAndFind
Look at my previous posts in this thread and ask yourself if I ever insinuated that our immigration laws are unjust laws. I never did.The churches helping illegals break the law say they have a right to disobey the law. Christians do not have a right to disobey the law in this land. They have to right to change it if they can.
38
posted on
05/27/2010 6:36:10 PM PDT
by
stripes1776
("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
To: Mrs. Don-o; SeekAndFind
That’s what I meant. I don’t find any room for personal definition of “unjust” laws, only disobedience of laws that obviously impede obeying God, and there is certainly no commandment or example in Scripture that justifies aiding foreign invasion or the coveting and theft of another nation’s prosperity.
39
posted on
05/27/2010 7:01:16 PM PDT
by
Anti-Utopian
("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
To: stripes1776
They do indeed have the right to disobey law in the sight of God, but they do not have the right to avoid consequence.
If the innocent go to prison, then God will repay. The innocent in Christ are more than willing to suffer indignity, because they know their justice will be 100-fold. The fact that this guy is trying to cash in while avoiding trouble is all the proof you need that he is a flim-flam.
40
posted on
05/27/2010 7:05:32 PM PDT
by
Anti-Utopian
("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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