Posted on 04/05/2010 3:13:26 PM PDT by wagglebee
Another emotion based argument that ignore all fact to cling to dogma.
Even if we accept your contention, a fetus, left alone becomes life. By surgically intervening via abortion, you prevent that life from being achieved. Thus even using your emotion based context, Abortion is murder.
And I know what your simplistic mind is going to come up with next. "Well then birth control is murder".
No it is not.
The egg, or the sperm, cannot become life until they combine. By preventing that combination, you prevent the potential for life from being created. Thus until conception the potential to become life does not exist. After conception it does.
After conception, unless you surgically intervene via abortion, the fetus will become, even under your warped context, life. Thus even if you accept your assumptions about when life starts, you must accept the fact that abortion is murder.
If you want me to take your posting seriously you will have to try actually addressing the argument I made in a calm, rational fashion not just scream you next set of per-programmed slogans in order to avoid having to address the facts rationally.
“We live in sin.”
Speak for yourself.
“’I am not an atheist. I just don’t believe in God.’
So, what deities do you believe in?”
I’m not a theist.
Hank
So, you commit no sin?
So, you commit no sin?
I have no idea what you mean by sin.
If by sin, you mean what you do. No, I never do that.
Hank
Then you ARE an atheist. The definition of theist is the belief in at least one deity. The definition of atheism is the position that there are no deities. Either you completely misunderstand the meaning of atheist, and are an atheist, or are a deist in some sense. Which is it?
Yeah we know:
You're not an anarchist, you just don't believe in government...
You're against abortion, you just don't want to abolish it...
You would make a great leftist politician.
What is your conception of sin?
As I pointed out in post #187, Hank is as completely messed up on his atheism as he is on his anarchism and abortion.
Hank, you really need to back off on getting into these debates until you have a better understanding of yourself.
I wonder why he is here at all, we are just “vile” conservatives.
Hank's opposition to abortion is non-existent at this point because he refuses to say WHY he's opposed to it. He just claims that he is with nothing to back it up. Talk is cheap.
Hank, you have been asked multiple times by multiple people to state your reason for opposing abortion. You've made it clear that you don't think the fetus is a human being and that therefore abortion is not murder. If you don't oppose it on moral grounds and you don't oppose it on political grounds, just why the heck do you oppose it in the first place? Why do you oppose abortion?
Why don't you answer?
It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people will go justify being able to accuse God of evil.
God’s commandment to not murder is a commandment to MANKIND to not take the life of another human being. It is not man’s place to decide when it is time for a person to die.
God is the author of life and He gives it and He takes it away. The reason God cannot be accused of murder is that even though He may end the physical life of the person, the spiritual life continues, so God didn’t end someone’s life even if that person is removed from this leverl of existence.
Man is not permitted to murder because man is not God and does not have the right over another person to determine their time of death. Since God has claim on every human being by virtue of His creating us and redeeming us, He has that right.
Atheists really ought to have the bigger problem with explaining the existence of good.
I suspect he's a Paulistan who's happy fomenting controversial discussions. We've seen enough to know he has little in the way of a belief system. With him, it's anything that leaves him to his own discretion - as convoluted and thoughtless as that is...
There’s this verse....
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Only human beings can sin. Here the Bible talks about sin from conception, not just birth. If there were no human, there would be no sin or sinful state.
The humanity of the fetus has been recognized in the past as well. There is the old English common law practice of *pleading the belly*. Although it applied to only cases where the woman was sufficiently along in her pregnancy for detectable movement to be felt, that was merely, no doubt, just a reflection of the available, or lack of available, technology to make any other more precise determination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_the_belly
Here is the google search link to several other articles about the same concept.
Well, if you look at the link on Hanks FR homepage, it links to his “Independent Individualist” page where he proudly has an Alex Jones video:
http://usabig.com/atnmst/jrnl_ii.php?art=49
You are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible you want to uphold and act on, it is as simple as that.
There is no doubt that God calls children a blessing. He also calls abundance and prosperity in other areas blessings.
Again, Adam wasn't a living soul until he breathed and the Bible says that the life of the flesh is in the blood, and blood isn't flowing in the first month or so.
So without blood there isn't life. Without life there isn't killing. Without killing there isn't murder.
Perhaps that is the reason that causing a miscarriage wasn't punished the same as a murder?
And if we don't ask questions then we are no different that automated obedient robots with no mind or free will of our own.
I did not write the book. But if one is going to build their moral and ethical foundations on Biblical principles then one cannot just do that with those that meet agreement with one's preconceived notions.
So do not mistake my attempt to uphold what the Bible says as justifying abortion.
And making it legal or illegal doesn't change it at all in God's eyes.
Hank, you have been asked multiple times by multiple people to state your reason for opposing abortion. You’ve made it clear that you don’t think the fetus is a human being and that therefore abortion is not murder. If you don’t oppose it on moral grounds and you don’t oppose it on political grounds, just why the heck do you oppose it in the first place? Why do you oppose abortion?
Why don’t you answer?
I’ve answered twice. I happen to think the issue is very important one, not something that can be addressed with twenty work quip. If you are not interested in understanding my reasons, that’s fine.
http://usabig.com/iindv/articles_stand/soccult/abortion.php
My grounds, by the way, are ethical, but my ethics are absolute, not the arbitrary ethics of religion.
http://usabig.com/iindv/articles_stand/phil_gen/religion_ten.php
Hank
That wasn't blunt. That was a very kind, gracious, and self-controlled assessment of his condition.
Human beings just MIGHT have some ability to self-govern themselves IF, and that's a very big IF, if they had and adhered to a high moral standard.
Since mankind tends not to lean in that direction, external controls are not only necessary, but absolutely essential, for an orderly and civilized society to even begin to function.
A republic like we have is the best form of government to date that mankind has implemented, but the reason it is not working any more is not because it's the government, but because the people in it have gotten away from what it was really meant to be.
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