Posted on 12/09/2009 1:18:26 AM PST by bigred08
The important part of your post was the last line - “If I read that file, . . . “
How do you know what Huckabee read regarding this individual? Is it not possible that what he was given to read about him was less than the whole record? There is blame to go around for why this criminal was out of prison. From those on the parole board who forwarded the request for clemency, to Huckabee, to Clemmon’s parole officer, to the courts both in Arkansas and Washington State. Singling out one man for mistakes (lots of them) made by many many people and placing blame squarely on his shoulders is wrong. I don’t support Huckabee, and did not (would not) vote for him. But, well, if you can’t understand at this point them I’m wasting bandwidth.
“Apparently, then, the article I read was incorrect on his age at time of crime vs conviction.”
Could be. I don't know. There's a lot of conflating of the facts concerning this topic, and I've found it difficult to get good information, myself.
It's clear that Mr. Clemmons began his crime spree shortly before his 17th birthday. He was 16.
And it was a fairly serious crime - it was one of the several “aggravated robberies” (he beat someone up while robbing them) that he committed over a period that seems to span roughly seven months.
But I guess because it was his first offense, he received the shortest sentence that he eventually was given.
“Regardless, this does not speak to what Huckabee did/did not know about this individual at the time the clemency decision was made.”
It's entirely reasonable to assume that Gov. Huckabee saw Mr. Clemmons’ criminal record and prison record.
This criminal record included three aggravated robberies (that is, he beat folks up to steal their stuff from them), several burglaries and a gun charge. His prison record showed at least three acts/attempts of significant violence.
I don't know whether he dug deeper, in which case he would have learned that police also considered him a suspect in other burglaries and assaults.
But even if he didn't dig deeper, there was enough information on the table to conclude that a likely sentence of 26 years (when he would have been eligible for parole originally, and apparently, quite likely to be released) wasn't excessive for someone with this sort of violent record.
Twenty-six years for a thug who thinks it's perfectly reasonable for him to assault folks to take their stuff seems reasonable, even a little light.
Eleven years, however, mocks justice.
Based on what Gov. Huckabee knew, or had a moral and professional responsibility to know, he exercised execrable judgment.
Everyone makes mistakes, even Republican governors. If today he said, “I've learned a lot since then, and learned that I didn't fully appreciate then the consequences of my actions. I wouldn't repeat these mistakes,” I'd be a little less critical of the former governor. But he continues to defend his awful judgment, and thus it must be assumed that his judgment continues to this day to be fatally flawed.
"I’m guessing that everyone who is being so vitriolic against Huckabee has never spent a single day as the Governor of any state."
Few of us will ever be the governor of a state. Yet, many of us are registered to vote, and thus we are called to pass judgment every day on those who would be our elected leaders. We must pass judgment on whether or not these persons are worthy of representing us. Gov. Huckabee fails in that regard.
sitetest
FReeperdom is not monolithic - despite some of the recent “kill the RINO’s” hysteria. There still exists a fairly wide range of opinion.
I would be inclined to agree with your perspective that some posts have been so clumsily written as to convey the impression that Huckabee’s proximate causality is tantamount to “make it sound as if he literally shot the police officers himself”. This is an unfortunate embellishment. But I would submit that Huckabee holds some measure of responsibility, that actions have consequences - sometimes unintended.
As to all this race-card nonsense, it is just that - nonsense. In this debate, at this time, and on this site, it is nothing more than a strawman and unworthy of a FReeper. Same is true of the hypothetical regarding bad cops. BTW, I would assert that there exists on FreeRepublic a contingent of cop-haters who relish every story of police abuse or misfortune.
Yes, I brought up the issue of race initially merely to explain how OTHER people might interpret Huckabee’s actions, which I think transcends the specific Clemmons case. While there might be acknowledgment of his lapse in judgment, people in the mainstream comment on their surprise that a Republican was willing to look into offering clemency to a black man period. They were surprised that that was even possible. That in and of itself made a statement and I don’t think it was necessarily a negative one, considering how “the race card” is one of the Dems’ most powerful weapons in maintaining their voting demographic. Again, I don’t support Huckabee politically. I was merely commenting on and analyzing the unintended consequences of what happened.
unintended implications* would be a better word, not consequences.
Huckabee said he provided his “own personal view of each and every file”. I would imagine at the very least that Clemmons eight felonies & his conduct as a prisoner would be in the file.
But it really didn’t matter. All I prisoner needed to say was “I love Jesus” and Huckabee frees him.
>>>If you want to go after someone, go after the one that let this killer out a second time! After he went back to jail!<<<
a) If Huckabee hadn’t give Clemmons a get out of jail free card, the other idiots would not have had the opportunity to let him go again.
b) It is quite possible to hold two individuals 100% responsible for something. The other idiots who let Clemmons go deserve full blame for what they did as well. I just don’t see them doing the rounds in the media to JUSTIFY their horrible mistakes the way Huckabee is.
c) A decent man would have canceled his appearance on a comedy show when he found out it would be on the same day as the funerals.
>>>We need Smart Christianity. Not Sucker Christianity.<<<
AMEN!
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.” - Matthew 10:16
I wonder if Clemmons and his family voted (R) in the last election, being that Huckabee was running on that ticket?
I'm proud to say I didn't vote for him in the primary. Nor did I vote for mclame in the primary.
IMHO, there was a great many people who failed with respect to letting this creep out of prison and to remain out, including Huckabee. I just have a problem with placing the blame entirely on one person when so many are responsible.
clearly the huckster is as vile as his followers
I certainly do not disagree with you here. My only issue is with the fact that the failures are widespread in this case (and probably many others across this country) and that holding just one man responsible is as shortsighted (IMHO) as what was demonstrated in releasing this individual in the first place. Many people failed, and as a result a little girl was raped and four LEO were murdered. I would like to see a significant change to the way clemencies are granted in this country (or, eliminate them except for exigent circumstances - e.g., when someone has been wrongfully imprisoned).
“My only issue is with the fact that the failures are widespread in this case (and probably many others across this country) and that holding just one man responsible is as shortsighted...”
I understand what you're saying, but I reply that for most of us, Gov. Huckabee is the only relevant individual in this debacle. There are any number of Arkansas officials who are likely to blame, as well. But I don't live in Arkansas and have no plans to move there. There are some folks in Washington state at serious fault, too. But I don't live there, either.
So, it's not my duty to try to hold any of those folks accountable for their errors.
But Gov. Huckabee has run for President of the United States from the Republican Party, and could well do so some time in the future. I'm a registered Republican, and actually voted in a primary where he was on the ballot, and may very well do so in the future.
Gov. Huckabee is a relatively young politician, and could conceivably run in 2012, 2016, 2020, or even in the years after.
Thus, as a voter who is part of his potential constituency, I must judge him and his worthiness for the high office that he's previously sought and might well seek again.
“I would like to see a significant change to the way clemencies are granted in this country (or, eliminate them except for exigent circumstances - e.g., when someone has been wrongfully imprisoned).”
No, I'm fine with the pardon power.
The problem is that in this particular state, Arkansas, there is a disconnect between formal sentences and actual sentences. If you want to put someone away for two or three decades, it seems necessary to sentence them to a hundred or more years in prison. And that's how Arkansas got to the clemency-crazy governor who commuted Mr. Clemmons’ sentences.
Parole introduces leeway and uncertainty into sentencing. I think some leeway and uncertainty in sentencing is good. If someone is sentenced to a bunch of years in prison, knowing that behaving well, improving oneself via education, etc. will shave 10% or 20% or even 25% off one’s sentence can be helpful motivator.
So, if the goal was to have Mr. Clemmons serve a minimum of a quarter century (not inappropriate for someone who commits three crimes of violence OUTSIDE prison and then more such crimes once incarcerated), then a sentence of 30 years or so should yield such a minimum. And then, as the criminal heads toward that 25-year mark, the prison system can ask the question whether he's done sufficiently well to forgo the last five or six or seven years behind bars.
But the way that Arkansas’ sentencing and parole worked, at least at the time of the Clemmons sentening and while he served his time, is a factor in what led to the abuses that we saw in this case, and in many others committed by Gov. Huckabee.
sitetest
Given what you are saying about how the parole system/clemency system is set up in Arkansas, then I’d have to ask who is responsible for a system that would allow for the early release of someone like Clemmons in the first place? Was Huckabee the Govenor when that system was put in place? And, would the Govenor be the only person who made the decision for that system?? Again, I iterate, there is much that was wrong and many mistakes made along the way by a great many people - these things need to be changed IMHO.
As for Huckabee and his future - nope, not gonna happen. He can run, but winning is out the window.
“Given what you are saying about how the parole system/clemency system is set up in Arkansas, then I’d have to ask who is responsible for a system that would allow for the early release of someone like Clemmons in the first place? Was Huckabee the Govenor when that system was put in place?”
I don't think so.
But I don't see that as being particularly important in the present case. Gov. Huckabee knew what Mr. Clemmons did - multiple violent crimes, and a history of violent deeds while incarcerated, and many infractions. He knew that by commuting his sentence to precisely 47 years, 5 months and 19 days that Mr. Clemmons would be eligible for parole the day that Gov. Huckabee signed the commutation.
And the parole board didn't disappoint, releasing Mr. Clemmons a few weeks later, with Mr. Clemmons serving a mere 11 years for three brutal attacks, several burglaries, a weapons charge, and many infractions while in prison.
Gov. Huckabee also knew that if he'd have done nothing, Mr. Clemmons in all likelihood would have served another 15 years or thereabouts, and be released in 2015.
Apparently, Gov. Huckabee thought that 26 years in prison for three violent crime convictions, several burglary convictions, a weapons charge, and a bunch of bad stuff while in prison for 11 years was just too harsh.
That's the bottom line, and that's why Gov. Huckabee deserves opprobrium.
“Again, I iterate, there is much that was wrong and many mistakes made along the way by a great many people - these things need to be changed IMHO.”
Sure. In Arksansas and Washington state. But that's the responsibility of the citizens of these two states, not of the rest of us generally.
“As for Huckabee and his future - nope, not gonna happen. He can run, but winning is out the window.”
That's right, because many of us take our duty seriously and judge Gov. Huckabee as a failure and as unworthy of higher office. In judging him, we do our duty and collectively bar him from higher office.
sitetest
anyone who thinks reducing a sentence to 47 years is a pardon is a moron
>>>He commuted the sentence to 47 years,
anyone who thinks reducing a sentence to 47 years is a pardon is a moron<<<
Did you bother to read any detailed articles on this case or this thread.
Reducing the sentence to 47 years made Clemmons IMMEDIATELY ELIGIBLE for parole. His was out on the streets a month later. Huckabee chose the rather strange figure of 47 years, becasue it was EXACTLY the length that would make Clemmons eligible for parole right away. If he cut the sentence to 50 years, Clemmons would have to wait another year to terrorize the community, if it was 60 he would be forced to wait another 4 years. 47 was the magic number to spring him right away and Huckabee knew that.
Huckabee wanted the 8 time felon out of prison and on the streets immediately. He got his wish and now 4 cops are dead.
“Huckabee chose the rather strange figure of 47 years,...”
LOL. It's worse than that.
Gov. Huckabee commuted the sentence to precisely 47 years, 5 months and 19 days, because that made Mr. Clemmons eligible for parole the very day that the commutation was executed.
The parole board didn't disappoint, actually releasing Mr. Clemmons a few weeks later.
sitetest
I guess that's possible. But Huckabee was asked about it a couple of days ago and he said he had the whole file and had read the whole file.
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