You are very correct that bad owners should not be allowed to own a Papillon!
Posted on 11/12/2009 8:43:54 AM PST by mnehring
No. I read #8. And while I think the time frame is an overstatement, the ideas expressed are sound. You seem to be intentionally overlooking the fact that dogs are capable of acting on their own, and that they tend to follow patterns they were bred to follow. A border collie acts on it's own to do what it has been bred to do, and so herds kids. A pit bull can act on its own to do what it was bred to do - attack and rend things - and sometimes when it does the consequences are disastrous.
I don't recall ever seeing a kid taken to the hospital because it was herded. My daughter has never been injured (fortunately - no twisted ankles) because holes are dug in my back yard by my terriers going after moles. Kids are not routinely in the news with injuries because they were run over by greyhounds.
Do pits get an inordinate amount of attention? Do people single them out? I think so. That doesn’t mean they are any less dangerous. They are big, strong and have the inbred traits that make them inordinately dangerous, and I view them as being dangerous along the lines of dogs from the guard breeds. You want one buy one. Maybe you have one (I can’t see the pics) - enjoy. Just don’t try to convince me of what I know is true because you think pits are picked on.
I love cats, but I can’t eat a whole one.
Flipping out? LOL - I read again and saw that. If you say so. What ever makes you feel better about what you prefer. It applies to pit bulls and freepers alike I suppose.
Exactly
I suppose it does.
Slightly off the subject, but German Shepherds are actually herding dogs, not in the same class as Rottweilers and Dobermans. They’re safe to have around kids if you know what you’re doing.
Yes, BORDER collies do what they were bred to do, which is herd. Pit Bulls do what they were bred to do, which is fight dogs. My point, which you seem to be misunderstanding, is that no breed 'just snaps' because they've been bred for it. If a dog is vicious there is a reason behind it, and it's not some magical 'nutso' gene.
You snuck in a nice little twist for yourself there!
Pit bulls are bred to fight dogs but border collies are bred to herd. BUT WAIT! What exactly are border collies bred to herd? Certainly not human children, right? I guess my friends dog HAS THE NUTSO GENE!!! God help them, they are hospital bound!
There. Now you have another post to not understand and move on from.
Quite right. The AKC has them in the herding category. There is no AKC guard breed, per se. In the description on their site they state: “The German Shepherd Dog is hailed as the world’s leading police, guard and military dog”
It is interesting that Dobermans can be very fierce. They can also be incredibly docile and loving, mirroring the greyhound part of their background. If the latter side is overly dominant they are usually unsuitable as guard dogs.
Of the breeds routinely used in this capacity I think the GS is probably the least likely to be a problem, and I love them, but I do not consider it worth the risk.
My approach is similar in logic to not owning a motorcycle. As much as I would enjoy one, they are dangerous. The risk is not worth taking IMO. Others are certainly welcome to think and act differently.
When my youngest is 15 or so and I have the time for the dog and the money for the bike I may reconsider.
Ain't that the truth.
Pit bulls are bred to fight dogs but border collies are bred to herd. BUT WAIT! What exactly are border collies bred to herd? Certainly not human children, right? I guess my friends dog HAS THE NUTSO GENE!!! God help them, they are hospital bound!
The behavior you describe (substituting the 'object' to channel instinct) happens all the time. For example, my dog pulls weight and walks for miles carrying bricks; This provides him with a sort of combat and allows him to feel fulfilled. Other owners use flyball, search & rescue training, frisbee competition, etc, to direct their dog's energy in a different direction than their breeding dictates. Amazing, I know.
Dobermans are descended from the Black & Tan terrier. They were bred by a tax collector as a personal protection dog. There is no greyhound in a pure-bred Doberman Pinscher.
Did you know that in the eighties, people thought that the Doberman’s brain would continue to expand after his skull stopped growing, causing him to suddenly “snap” and attack everything in sight?
From this site
http://www.von-liphier-dobermann.com/about-doberman-pincher.php
The Doberman Pinscher, often mispelled as Doberman Pinchers, originated in Apolda, Germany around 1890. It takes its name from Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann. Herr Dobermann crossed old-type German Shepherds with German Pinschers to achieve his perfect dog. Rottweilers, Black-and-Tan Terriers, and Greyhounds also added to the brew. Louis Dobermann was aiming to breed a giant terrier for agility combined with strength and guard-dog qualities. The breed was originally called Doberman’s Dog. The name Pinscher which means terrier was later added.
As for what people thought about dobermanns, some thought Jimmy Carter was good and Ronald Reagan was bad, too.
BTW, are you aware that you have supported my point at least twice now?
You are very correct that bad owners should not be allowed to own a Papillon!
Pit bulls are more dangerous than a similarly-sized dog of a more gentle breed. They are massive, powerful, and have the terrier drive. I think that an unintended consequence of being bred for gameness created a certain reluctance to give themselves over whole-heartedly to human beings.
Now that they are ‘fashionable’ dogs, clueless people buy them and expect them to be happy with the normal sort of human-dog interaction that most dogs thrive on. A pit bull will get bored, and even though it may adore it’s owner and never exhibit signs of aggression towards them, it will try to find a way to fulfill it’s instinctual urges.
Of course, all dogs do this. A retriever can fulfill himself playing fetch, a herding dog can chase cars...But there is nothing a pit bull can do by itself to approximate a bloody fight to the death, that’s not going to result in tragedy.
Look, I’d be happy to have you agree with me, but I’m thinking you didn’t actually read the whole thing; you just skimmed it and then posted it; which is fine, I hope it gets spread around more.
Maybe, for the sake of clarity, you could articulate your point for me? I really love these discussions but I’m having a hard time understanding where you’re coming from.
Wait - does this mean liberals are unreachable? Perhaps Savage is correct - liberalism IS a mental disorder.””
Swine is a generic term for liberals and pigs. It is usually difficult to differentiate the two.
Pigs are a noble animal compared to liberals.
It is useless arguing with owners. You can cite the numbers from reliable refereed sources (JAVMA, CDC) and it makes no difference to the owners—they can’t fathom that their one dog does not represent the entire breed. I have dealt with thousands of clients on this issue, and many other issues from infectious disease, metabolic disease, intoxications, you name it— and most owners will never admit they are wrong. I fully understand training behavior but I also understand inbred behavior in animal breeds of all types.
“It is useless arguing with owners. You can cite the numbers from reliable refereed sources (JAVMA, CDC) and it makes no difference to the owners—they can’t fathom that their one dog does not represent the entire breed.”
Did you read the entire CDC study? The only part of the entire thing that says it might be a breed-specific problem is one sentence that everyone takes out of context. The table is also used by people who want to ban dogs, and they too seem incapable of being able to read a few pages of information. The problem with this is the table and that one sentence are NOT what the authors of the study want people to get out of it. If that was it, why bother writing pages of information explaining what the table means? Their purpose was to show how flawed the system for reporting dog breeds is (because they got their numbers from media reports) and that above breed or any other considerations, the most dangerous dogs are the ones which are not responsibly owned.
As for your comment about one dog not representing the entire breed, well...it seems that out of five to ten million pit bulls, only a handful have taken lives, so yes, dog owners are correct that the dogs that haven’t attacked someone ARE representative of the breed, not the other way around. How on Earth can a minority of 0.00004% ever be considered as the norm? That is ridiculous.
As for inbred behavior, the dogs were bred to fight other animals, never people. I don’t know how much more simplified we can make this. If they really were bred to just go off and fight whatever it’s around, then the five to ten million pit bulls would all be mauling people and pets. Instead, a few pit bulls make it to the news daily out of the 13 thousand attacks by all dogs occurring each and every day.
“Of course, all dogs do this. A retriever can fulfill himself playing fetch, a herding dog can chase cars...But there is nothing a pit bull can do by itself to approximate a bloody fight to the death, that’s not going to result in tragedy.”
You could have fooled the majority of pit bull owners whose dogs have spent their entire lives enjoying the same dog sports as other dogs without incident. How do you think these dogs make it in the show ring or dog sports? They aren’t blindfolded and held down. They’re trained and socialized, and overall are owned by responsible, knowledgeable people that don’t encourage aggressive behavior.
Have you ever heard of a lab going on an unstoppable fetching spree? Probably not, because if the lab is responsibly owned, it would not be ALLOWED to continue fetching past the point of being unhealthy or obsessive. It doesn’t mean there aren’t labs out there that go absolutely nuts when they see that little green ball, even long after they should be exhausted.
Where the heck did you get that pit bulls are massive? Are you even thinking of the right breed? They should be from 35 to 60 pounds. Their jaw strength has been tested, and it ranks the same for other similarly-sized dogs. They aren’t even the strongest. They also don’t have a locking jaw, either. Lots of other dogs have been bred to fight. Greyhounds weren’t, and they still wear muzzles when racing because they WILL fight each other. They’re dogs, and dogs operate by completely different rules.
Also use these with lots of love...you'll end up with a great dog!
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