Posted on 09/09/2009 5:42:49 PM PDT by Dan Middleton
Wonderful argument truthsearcher. By the way fieldmarshaldj, the baby’s heart is beating before most women even know that they are pregnant before they have missed a period.
Madam, you and I agree a lot more than we disagree. I have been attacked over the years for being a “militant pro-lifer” by the pro-aborts (including my own grandmother who would berate me for being a Conservative pro-lifer), and now I’m being attacked in this thread as if I’m the representative from Planned Barrenhood (a front for genocide if there ever was one). I have explained to you repeatedly my position in this thread, and you and the other individual persist on grotesquely perverting my stance. You’re throwing arguments at me that I agree with over 90% of the time - but said argument stops when it comes to a rape victim at the time of the crime, that’s it. You want to argue it’s wrong, you can, that’s your right, and I defend your right to do so, and your argument has validity, but you also have no right, nor do I, nor the state, to dictate to a crime victim in the immediate aftermath that she will be FORCED to carry the produce of a rapist to term. That, madam, is reprehensible beyond description.
The line has to be drawn here, or we cease to live in a free society. My position on this point is Libertarian, and only this point, otherwise your positions are essentially correct. But I will not, in good conscience, tell a crime victim that she will continue to be punished for something she didn’t do and that a clump of cells (and I’m sorry, but at that point within 24 hours, that it is what it is - it’s not yet a viable baby by any stretch of the imagination) has more rights than she does. Totalitarianism in the pursuit of morality is immoral. The fact that you, as a woman, cannot see my argument (you don’t have to agree with it, I’m not asking you to, only to comprehend and understand it and why - to see that I am merely focused on one singular point about a rape victim’s rights) is extraordinarily disturbing.
I speak for those who are pro-lifers who see that exception as an unfortunate - very unfortunate - but necessary one. That’s it. But for those, like the subject of this thread, who choose life, who try to make something good come from evil, well, they have my enormous respect and admiration (I’d say without sarcasm that they are practically saints for doing so). But it is wholly up to them to make the free and conscious decision to do so when forced with such a terrible situation, and nobody else.
Oh, I thought we were talking about abortion and how it is the killing of a human being.
I see your point clearly. It is hypocritical. You say abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape. Again, I ask the question, Why do you oppose abortion? It is a simple question, yet you have failed to answer it. If you oppose abortion because it is wrong, what makes it right in this particular case? What makes THIS particular “clump of cells” less deserving of the right to life than the “clump of cells” made by two people who consented to sex? You keep calling my position reprehensible. I find your position reprehensible. You keep calling a human baby nothing more than sperm, spawn , clumps of cells. Truthseeker is right, you are using all the abortion advocates arguments. Why cant those arguments be used for elective abortions? You don’t not seem to realize the seriousness of abortion. It is the taking of life that you think should be allowed because a woman is raped. I think she and the baby should be protected from more violence not SUBJECTED to more violence because some people think that abortion will cure her of the rape. I can tell you this for certain, murdering her own baby will haunt her for a lifetime. Carrying a baby to term has the possibility to heal her fractured soul. This article is the PERFECT example of that.
Madam, I really don’t think you do see it, I think you’re so focused on the fetus, whether it be a clump of cells at conception, or at 9 months - you refuse to distinguish the difference, which makes it even harder to have a logical and rational discussion here.
You mean well, I know you do, but unfortunately, there are some grey areas that occur in situations that have no easy solutions. You believe you have the definitive solution, and it’s the only one you can allow yourself to subscribe to, no matter the potential hazards (for which you cannot even allow your mind to entertain). This is one time when even strident pro-lifers have to weigh both and ask if one life outweighs another in importance, and the answer at this point of the game, is yes, and that is the life of the young woman’s. Most women, like most men, aren’t saints, they have to make unpleasant decisions that lean into that grey area.
Perhaps if you were confronted with a horrible situation, your teenage daughter attacked and raped by a stranger, or even worse, raped and impregnated by your husband, and those things happen in this country every day - I had a family close to mine for which incest was going on, and only by the grace of God that none of the victims ended up pregnant, but they were permanently traumatized. How would you deal with such a situation with your own child ? What if your daughter begged you to consent to terminate in the aftermath of conception, conception by your own husband ? Would you order her to carry the product of an unholy coupling ? Could you not see how just as wrong that would be ?
But, I disagree it is hypocritical, the entire thing is simply unfortunate and very sad, and we just keep going in circles, and the language you claim I use is just as loaded on your end. Plus, you already know the answer to your question posed to me, so I guess we’re all going to have to find each other reprehensible for all our respective positions on this subject.
There is only grey area when you don’t have a foundation for your morals. Yours are based on the situation and mine are not. First if something like that ever happened to my daughter, she would not kill the baby. She knows that a pregnancy is a life. She took my miscarriage almost as hard as I did. My children still talk and sometimes cry about their brother or sister that they lost. No I still do not know why you oppose abortion. You obviously don’t think it is murder or the taking of a human life. If you did then it would be murder for the raped woman just like it would be for an irresponisble mother. You aren’t being consistent and that is what I mean by hypocritical. If it is wrong for the irresponsible mother and the state can tell her what to do, then why isn’t it wrong for the raped mother and the state can’t tell her what to do? I think you have your emotions to wrapped up in this. There may be potential hazards in a difficult situation. That does not mean we allow people to do evil in the name of a way out.
You don’t see anything. A child doesnt further tramatize the mother. The rape tramatizes. Again, MURDER doesn’t help my daughter’s trauma it will add to it. In fact an abortion is WORSE THAN THE INITIAL RAPE. The woman was a victim of the rape. She can overcome that. She becomes the victimizer in the abortion. Few women find healing for that except through Christ. So NO I would not allow her to MURDER the baby. Of course I think murder of babies is EVIL so think what you will of me. I jives fine with my beliefs. I believe ALL human life is sacred and the baby has JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO LIFE AS THE MOTHER. If the baby was going to kill the mother you may have a point. The baby is also an innocent victim. You still haven’t answered my question. Why can’t ANY woman have an abortion? Why are you against that? Why is it only ok in the instance of rape?
I have strained to be polite to you, for which you have similarly shown me no such extension. Before I say something rude, as a Christian, I will conclude this conversation with you. I pray you and your family, especially your daughters, never have that scenario of impregnation via rape visited upon them.
You have called my opinion pure evil and reprehensible. I do not think that is straining to be polite. You have also called unborn children things like products of violence, sperm, spawn and clumps of cells. The only think I did was answer you in kind. I have repeatedly asked you a simple question that you have not answered. You think abortion is not ok in most instances but is ok in one instance. That is inconsistent at best. Can you extrapolate that to some other evil thing. Is it okay to murder in some instances and not in others. Is it okay to steal in some instances and not in others? Is it okay to abuse your children in some instances and not in others? Either abortion is wrong or it is not. You can’t have it both ways. So is abortion wrong or not? Your arguments are filled with alot of emotion and not much reason which is why you haven’t answered my simple question. I answered yours even though it was a loaded question and very emotionally charged. The only polite thing you did was begin each of your emotional rants with the word Madam.
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