Posted on 07/09/2009 2:44:17 PM PDT by TaraP
No.
But the same satanic forces that were behind Mormonism are behind this phenomenon.
The buried plates thing has just begun to occur recently.
I haven’t followed it very closely.
You said — There’s essentially no realistic, serious, comparision. They are about as different to the serioius investigator as night vs day.
—
As with many things, it turns out that when you have a controversial topic, things fall into several categories.
Source material...
(1) the original topic (raising questions and needing explanation)
(2) the hoaxed topic (put out/disseminated to deflect from the original topic)
Explanations...
(1) a debunking of the original topic
(2) a debunking based on the hoaxed topic
(3) an analysis of the topic (i.e., the investigation including legitimate and kook investigators)
(4) a conspiracy related to the topic (forming a bigger picture, or a whacko theory)
(5) several rational explanations (different reasonable opinions)
(6) several irrational explanations (including some who want to be reasonable, but are incompetent, along with debunkers, who don’t care about being competent)
(7) and then the comics... LOL...
AND THEN, you take all of the above, throw it into a pot and stir..., and voila, you’ve got a bunch of webpages on the Internet... :-)
Well, I’m strongly in the doubter camp regarding crop circles, despite having an open mind on most phenomena along these lines.
Have you considered that some sort of alien or demonic presence would not piddle around with fake gold or even gold leaf? An authentic tablet would be solid gold or copper, I would think. Gold is prized for many reasons, above and beyond beauty.
So, regarding this tablet thing, of recent vintage according to your study of the matter, if they’re cheaply made, they’re fake.
Would you accept this?
A tension reliever eh? Better than any other theory I’ve heard.
UFOs, terrestrial or alien, are an unassailable answer. If you accept the premise of UFOs at the start then it is easy to accept that they construct CCs over night and all the other mysterious aspects of them. The ability to make a CC is kind of minor compared to the flying craft themselves. Especially if it is thought that they come from light years away. Or from another dimension. Or whatever.
It is too easy of an explanation when you start with an unquestioned premise that is far bigger than what you're trying to explain.
I don't know about occult phenomena being responsible. It takes a shaman or group of shamans a great deal of training, dedication and discipline to accomplish relatively minor feats of mind over matter.
Who would commit so much devotion and discipline to make pictures on the ground? To do that wouldn't exactly be a hoax but it would still be a joke. That would be analogous to spending the time, money and technological talent that NASA does on a space shuttle to create a Saturday morning cartoon.
You said — With GPSs these things are relatively easy. You should see some of the corn mazes they come up with.
—
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by using GPS with these things. If you mean using GPS (even from some expensive GPS device of maybe $500 or so) to make the patterns accurately on the ground, using GPS numbers to position key points in the pattern, no, that wouldn’t work.
You would only say so, never having used GPS for trying to actually map or pinpoint stuff on the ground. I have, and there is quite a bit of error in the GPS coordinates, if you’re wanting to really pinpoint things. It just doesn’t do that good of a job.
For example, the following is a chart of GPS errors which are introduced by various things.
Ionospheric effects — ± 5 meters
Shifts in the satellite orbits — ± 2.5 meter
Clock errors of the satellites’ clocks — ± 2 meter
Multipath effect — ± 1 meter
Tropospheric effects — ± 0.5 meter
Calculation- und rounding errors — ± 1 meter
Altogether this sums up to an error of ± 15 meters. With the SA still activated, the error was in the range of ± 100 Meter. Corrections by systems like WAAS and EGNOS, which mainly reduce ionospheric effects, but also improve orbits and clock errors, the overall error is reduced to approximately ± 3 - 5 meters.
[ http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/errors.htm ]
My GPS device has WAAS built in... so I get the maximum correction possible.
—
The Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) is a form of differential GPS (DGPS) giving enhanced position accuracy developed primarily for aeronautical navigation but usable by other users. Each Wide Area Reference Station (WRS) provides correction data to a Wide Area Master Station (WMS), which computes a grid of correction data to be uplinked to a geostationary satellite (GEO) via a Ground Earth Station (GES) in the Ground Uplink System (GUS). The geostationary satellite transmits the correction data (and also navigation data) to the user on the L1 GPS navigation frequency (1575.42 MHz). The user GPS receiver uses the downlink WAAS data to correct received navigation data. The goal of WAAS is to obtain at least a 7-meter horizontal and vertical accuracy.
[ http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm ]
—
So, some people with their GPS devices are going to be in an area of ± 15 meters, while I (and others) with WAAS are going to have an error of ± 3 - 5 meters.
Therefore, even with a highly accurate GPS with WAAS and an error of ± 3 - 5 meters — is going to put you off a possible *30 FEET* one way or the other...
That’s *way too much error* for constructing anything accurate, like what you see...
I’ve tried using GPS with WAAS and mapping stuff on the ground. It doesn’t work too well. What GPS works well in doing is navigating, but not putting you down on the ground to a precise location, unless you think 30 feet is precise enough for you. For me, that’s not precise enough for mapping something (on paper) that is on the ground — or vice versa — putting something that is on paper — “on the ground”...
1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. 5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Time no more…
M
Tick Tock...
It does seem that a lot of people require an explanation for everything. Even if it is a lousy explanation. I have come to accept that the cause of some things is a complete unknown and may always be. Looking for the cause is fine but I don't need an interim explanation to hold me over until reality is actually revealed to me.
Whatever is going on with crop circles, it’s clear that they exist (i.e., no doubt about it).
Careful there, someone will tell you that they don't. ;^)
Here’s what I would like to see, with all of this. ...
I'd like to see it too. I'm amazed that the Myth Busters haven't tried to make one. Those guys have a lot of tools and talent at their disposal. Or that a cable contest show hasn't been done. We've got to be careful though. Soon we'll be destroying crops all over the world for entertainment. Circuses with no bread.
I agree with your assessment of using a GPS. You really nailed that down with facts and figures. I simply note that my GPS flutters anywhere from 5-30 feet of accuracy constantly. By the time I stomped down a square foot of wheat it would have changed its reading about ten times.
For you and others — y’all might be interested in seeing a bunch of pictures of crop circles from some websites, although I’m sure that some readers know much more about the topic than what is presented here.
The websites that are devoted to what they call “research” on this topic will include the “fake” ones along with the ones that they indicate, don’t seem to be faked.
There are obviously people out there who are piggy-backing on the phenomenon and making fake ones, but I don’t think that all of those crop circles are easily explained as some scammers making them for fame or fortune or notoriety... :-)
I don’t “buy into” a lot of their explanations as far as “origins” are concerned (especially not the UFO reports regarding extra-terrestrial civilizations, traveling from far-away galaxies, and coming here in their craft and creating them for us, for whatever reason) — but their “information” as far as details after they were found, are interesting. And I think that many of these kinds of websites can be used for informational details about the facts that are gathered after they are discovered on the ground.
And they always have a whole lot of interesting pictures, too... :-)
http://www.cropcirclesecrets.org/
http://www.ufo-reports.com/crop-circles.html
http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/
—
Also, it would pay to know about the “scammers” for the crop circle phenomenon. There are the scammers out there, and they’ve made themselves known, too.
Confessions Of A Crop Circle Maker
http://www.starstreamresearch.com/confessions.htm
John Lundberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lundberg
Rob Irving and John Lundberg
http://www.dailygrail.com/node/3918
From what I can see, the scammers don’t account for everything... It appears that they’ve taken advantage of a phenomenon for their own aggrandizement and notoriety and as a test of their own personal scamming abilities... LOL...
I’m not that conversant with GPS as I should be, but I do know PLS now use GPS with their Total Base Stations, and it when tied to a nearby reference may also provide mm to cm resolution.
GPS kept changing so much in the 90s that PLSs couldn;t keep up with the changes, ...$5k min per shot of equipment, then 6 mo to 2yrs later it was out of date. It’s stabilized quite a bit now, but unfortunately, I haven’t had access to a good PLS update on the technology in about a decade. The professionals I work with, though, do use it daily and their flavor of GPS is quite a bit more rigorous than the consumer flavor on your SUV.
You said — well I hate to destroy the myth ... lol, not really
—
We’re not talking about a myth here. Keep in mind, that the military did, for a long while purposely introduce error into the GPS systems, but part of that was removed. Those errors I was talking about in the GPS systems that you can get on the market — are real errors.
It’s only people who have not used them, in real-life situations who may think that they are super-accurate. They are not, and all you have to do is try it out yourself, besides you seeing those figures that I already gave you for errors.
NOW..., the *qualifier* here is whether you think an error of up to about 30 feet one way or another is not an error or not. I say it’s a big error. But, if you’re trying to find a particular building or a house, a 30-foot error is not going to make too much difference. You’ll find the house.
If you’re trying to map something that is on the ground and put it to paper, that 30-foot error is going to trip you up. If all you want is something approximate, perhaps you don’t care about that kind of 30-foot error. That’s the key — whether you care about an error of 30 feet that can go one way or the other.
You can’t get around the *fact* of that 30-foot error, in the GPS system that we have and use everyday in our cars or phones or GPS tracking devices and so on. It’s there...
And once again, I include the following for the documentation for what I’m talking about...
Ionospheric effects — ± 5 meters
Shifts in the satellite orbits — ± 2.5 meter
Clock errors of the satellites’ clocks — ± 2 meter
Multipath effect — ± 1 meter
Tropospheric effects — ± 0.5 meter
Calculation- und rounding errors — ± 1 meter
Altogether this sums up to an error of ± 15 meters. With the SA still activated, the error was in the range of ± 100 Meter. Corrections by systems like WAAS and EGNOS, which mainly reduce ionospheric effects, but also improve orbits and clock errors, the overall error is reduced to approximately ± 3 - 5 meters.
[ http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/errors.htm ]
The Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) is a form of differential GPS (DGPS) giving enhanced position accuracy developed primarily for aeronautical navigation but usable by other users. Each Wide Area Reference Station (WRS) provides correction data to a Wide Area Master Station (WMS), which computes a grid of correction data to be uplinked to a geostationary satellite (GEO) via a Ground Earth Station (GES) in the Ground Uplink System (GUS). The geostationary satellite transmits the correction data (and also navigation data) to the user on the L1 GPS navigation frequency (1575.42 MHz). The user GPS receiver uses the downlink WAAS data to correct received navigation data. The goal of WAAS is to obtain at least a 7-meter horizontal and vertical accuracy.
[ http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm ]
Do they have crop insurance in the UK? How come you never hear a word about the financil cost of these things. Is the gov’t absorbing the cost to compensate the farmers whose crops have been damaged?
You said — ‘nuff said
—
Well, as I said, if someone is satisfied with a possible 30-foot error, I guess it’s fine... it’s all up to the individual. For me, a 30-foot error just doesn’t work for what I wanted to do. But, for others, perhaps they don’t care about that 30-foot error.
And, by the way, that error *shifts* back and forth, so it’s not always a consistent 30-foot error always on one side or the other side, but at one moment, your position can be a possible — 30 feet — away from your position in the next moment, without you ever *actually moving* from your position... LOL...
Now, that’s what I call a *error*... :-)
—
Oh..., and one more thing..., just in case anyone brings it up. You can get your accuracy down a lot better than that, if you’ve got the “time” and “money” and the “expensive equipment” and “computers”... So, it is possible to reduce the errors down to a very low level, but you better have the time to do it, and the money for the very expensive equipment and you better be able to calculate the necessary corrections.
Geographic Positioning System (GPS) applications are widely used in engineering surveys such as in site surveying setting out, check and compliance surveys. The application of GPS become very complex and demanding, when it is used in engineering projects such as bridges, dams, tunnels, high rise buildings which require precise deformation measurements. In essence, GPS has been a popular tool for long term monitoring of civil engineering structures. Hence, GPS application on engineering survey implies accuracy and reliability.
As we know in engineering surveying, emphasis on error correction and accuracy is taken seriously. In other words, an engineering surveyor should know the accuracy and reliability limits of the surveying technique or method he uses. Hence, he has to use the most reliable, economical, technically appropriate measuring technology for the intended purpose.
It is important to know about the real accuracy limits of surveying methods. Thus when using GPS, one should be aware of its applicability and limitations in engineering surveys.
GPS applications use satellite technologies (which has comprehensive error correction procedures or large error budgets) which allow reliability and accuracy. The accuracy of GPS application in engineering survey depends on many factors that depend on optimal observation parameters and procedures using various standards and software systems. The accuracy and reliability of GPS in engineering surveying greatly influenced by the factors:
1) the satellite constellation system used,
2) the atmospheric condition,
3) actual measuring condition of the observed site,
4) the quality of GPS instruments used and
5) the procedures used for testing, processing and optimization of GPS data obtained from site. Hence, similar to traditional engineering surveying, accuracy management is essential when applying GPS engineering Application to surveying.
Presently the GPS applications are popularly used when developing local special geodetic networks for engineering projects. Such networks are small compared to large regionally and globally available networks. To ensure reliability accuracy of these testing models, it is essential to acquire large amount of experimental data for a considerable period. Then the data is subject to various investigation and analyses with a view to improve and optimize the observation and processing procedures.
[ http://ezinearticles.com/?GPS-Engineering-Survey&id=2574530 ]
Note this — “To ensure reliability accuracy of these testing models, it is essential to acquire large amount of experimental data for a considerable period. Then the data is subject to various investigation and analyses with a view to improve and optimize the observation and processing procedures.”
*This procedure* is not at all suitable or possible for crop circles... or minute measurements in a quick time frame. And thus, if you have a complex diagram, and wanted to transfer it from “paper” to the ground, it would take a very long time to accurately map the various positions (i.e., “points”) and you would have to then use other methodologies to keep the patterns precisely intact, while you were doing it.
Well, you did forget to include *this line* and/or warning, when supplying “documentation”... LOL...
The story above is a satire or parody. It is entirely fictitious.
That’s at the end of their “story”.... :-)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.