Posted on 06/22/2009 4:24:22 AM PDT by marktwain
Yes he did, but he did so by failing to educate his kid, not by failing to store his weapon in some bizarre and foolish manner mandated by a bunch of pants wetters. You and I both know that children older than toddlers, when properly trained, are safe around firearms. It's been that way for centuries.
marktwain replies:
This is from GOA. They do not seem to be saying that everyone under 18 should be prevented from having access to firearms:
http://gunowners.org/op0132.htm
What do you mean by “secured from children”? Do you mean that no one under 18 should have access to a firearm except in the presence of an adult?
All 3 of my daughters were taught to shoot, were taught gun safety and knew all 7 places in the house where a locked and cocked gun resided.
They got in trouble when they pointed a toy pistol at someone. All three are very capapble women and deadly with a variety of handguns. And ... all knew how to shoot by age 14.
It’s thet stupid jerks that teach their children only one thing to do “do not touch that” that run into trouble. Teach them respect and that every arm they pick up is loaded, even if the slide is open or the bolt is out or if they can see daylight down the barrel. That gun is ALWAYS considered loaded.
Even while cleaning, the muzzle is pointed in a harmless direction. Teach childrn that, and they will never have or cause a problem.
Never have I been worried about loaded weapons in my house.
Thank You ... common sense and discipline prevailed in your house.
Some of us were taught it. My kids were taugt it from the time they could understand .. and then as maturity came they were taught how to use those firearms as well.
Hide it from your faily and kids ... trouble brews and will erupt. It is the day we live in.
The goa doesn’t have a position on this. They have no safety classes. They have no shooting competitions. They don’t teach safety officers. There is no incident when the goa has ever done a single active thing about gun safety.
Talk isn’t cheap when you’re a goa member. They’ll talk you to death about what they want to do without a single accomplished action.
You’re a fool for throwing your money at nonaction.
Jeff Cooper’s four rules of gun safety:
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
I’ll let Xenia St. post the NRA’s since I favor Cooper’s.
I NEVER said I was a GOA member and I NEVER said they had a position only that I MIGHT listen to them over the NRA.
Please try and read more carefully before you start your NRA is god attacks.
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
Ill let Xenia St. post the NRAs since I favor Coopers.
Thanks for the ping. This leads to familiarity and loss of focus. There are a great many differences between Cooper Rules and the NRA rules.
Cooper rules are random and confusing,
Cooper rules use words which are not easily understood by all.
Cooper rules 2 & 3 each contain two topics.
Some wag stated ""All guns are always loaded!" is a ridiculous thing to say. That is why NRA Certified Instructors teaching NRA basic courses teach
Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to useCol Cooper's rules have value in a "free-fire zone"
however in any other place they are patently
absurd as 99.9% of all guns are unloaded.
NRA rules are all positive and start with the same positive word.
which facilitates learning and retention.
thus difficult to learn and retain.
NRA rules use words that can be understand by all.
Each NRA rule is one topic.
Sometimes Cooper rule three has two topics
The NRA rules are in a sequence of safety
If rule one is observed rule two and three if violated will cause no harm.
If rule two is observed rule three if violated, will cause no harm
The most violated Cooper rule is rule number one.(I thought it was unloaded)
What kind of safety rule is a declarative statement which is patently false?
"Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction" as Rule One.
NRA Gun Safety Rules :
Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
You clowns get all innocent when you get corrected.
What did you tell us the NRA can do on post 20?
The NRA rules are not “better”. It's only a matter of opinion since there has never been a study between accidents between Cooper trained individuals and NRA trained individuals.
Sir, I must respectfully disagree. I would argue that Cooper's formulation is the simplest yet devised that covers the broadest range of circumstances, with particular relevance to those, like CCW holders or police officers who, while not living in free-fire zones, carry a hot weapon on a daily basis. They apply in administrative settings (ie, changing ammuntion, clearing a weapon etc.), while training, when the weapon must be presented, and during a firefight. The mental reminder "all guns are loaded" has saved more than a few ND's. One needn't quibble that this is an illogical, or even factually untrue assertion; it serves as a simplified mental "safety" when one is tired, distracted, or otherwise not at the top of one's game.
And in such real-world situations, the final reminder, to be aware of one's target and background, is perhaps the most important, and should not be conflated into a "safe direction" phrase. Indeed, CCW holders must on occasion point their weapons in directions that are inherently unsafe from someone's perspective, as, for instance, at an armed assailant.
There is nothing wrong with the NRA rules, but historically, and practically, they are directed at a recreational or training environment where one might argue that it is acceptable to holster a cold pistol, and one need not worry about the target or ballistic integrity of the backstop.
Sir, I must respectfully disagree. I would argue that Cooper's formulation is the simplest yet devised that covers the broadest range of circumstances, with particular relevance to those, like CCW holders or police officers who, while not living in free-fire zones, carry a hot weapon on a daily basis. They apply in administrative settings (ie, changing ammuntion, clearing a weapon etc.), while training, when the weapon must be presented, and during a firefight. The mental reminder "all guns are loaded" has saved more than a few ND's. One needn't quibble that this is an illogical, or even factually untrue assertion; it serves as a simplified mental "safety" when one is tired, distracted, or otherwise not at the top of one's game.
And in such real-world situations, the final reminder, to be aware of one's target and background, is perhaps the most important, and should not be conflated into a "safe direction" phrase. Indeed, CCW holders must on occasion point their weapons in directions that are inherently unsafe from someone's perspective, as, for instance, at an armed assailant.
There is nothing wrong with the NRA rules, but historically, and practically, they are directed at a recreational or training environment where one might argue that it is acceptable to holster a cold pistol, and one need not worry about the target or ballistic integrity of the backstop.
They have value for dogfaces and grunts. However they have proven to be unsafe. Police Officer Safety Training (POST) train with Cooper rules. Many years ago the NRA used the Cooper rules; They are much safer because: Why do I point the gun in a safe direction? Why do I keep my finger off the trigger? I don't load a gun until I plan to use it. I train and certify NRA Certified Instructors in all disciplines I'm a Chief Range Safety Officer training NRA Certified Range Safety Officers Here are the rules which are safer than Cooper rules:
Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use
1. Know your target and what is beyond. 2. Be sure the gun is safe to operate. 3. Know how to use the gun safely. 4. Use only the correct ammunition for your gun. 5. Wear eye and ear protection. 6. NEVER use alcohol or drugs before or while shooting. 7. Store guns so they are NOT accessible to unauthorized persons. 8. Be aware that certain types of guns and many shooting activities require additional safety precautions. I am quite familiar with Col. Cooper's rules.
When you plan to shoot or store , the following rules come into effect:
Which is where they were developed during WWII.
The NRA Training Department has developed Police Firearms training
based on NRA Safety rules in hope of reducing NDs by LEOs
His rules proved to be unsafe as NDs did not decrease,
the NRA training dept spent years developing safer rules.
Since the introduction of the new rules NDs among
those trained with the new rules have dramatically decreased
Because until I inspect the chamber, I assume it is loaded.
Because I assume that it is loaded until I inspect the chamber.
including Personal Protection both in and outside the Home.
and I also teach the development of Standard Operating Procedures for the operation of
both indoor and outdoor ranges in all disciplines. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
NRA Eight Rules for Using or Storing A Gun
There are many more training rules for both concealed and open carry.
However the three fundamental rules apply in all circumstances.
I hope that I have made it very clear why Cooper rules have failed to protect the shooter.
If you rely only on the Cooper rules you have placed yourself at greater risk.
This is indeed a topic that seems never to rest. If there are empirical data showing that the NRA’s “ABC” ruleset itself generates a lower ND rate among trainees, that would be good news indeed, and speaks well for the hard work of a fine organization, and dedicated trainers such as yourself.
However, there is more to it than that.
For example, rule A seems overly delicate, and frankly, appears guaranteed to leave “training scars” if one must train for the fight, rather than the range. Cooper’s turn of phrase, both more poetic and more accurate “not willing to destroy” also conjures the terrible consequences firearms are capable of delivering. Indeed, it is unsafe to point your duty weapon at, say, an armed robbery suspect, but it must be done and the officer or armed citizen must be willing to take that terrible step and “destroy” his target, if it comes to that. In training we indulge at our peril in soft euphemisms, a luxury the grunt and the dogface, the cop and the armed citizen cannot afford.
Cooper himself does a better job of addressing this, so those interested would be well advised to consult the guru:
http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff11_13.html
That said, I’m not trying to pick a fight. You have your perspective, based on your training and experience, and I have mine, based on my own. That’s not really material, though. Testable hypotheses will eventually be proved in the field. At present, Rules 1-4 have been shown to work, and Rules ABC are the contenders.
Again, I’ll remind you that no set of rules is “better”. For that to happen, two sets of control groups who have never had any experience with firearms would have to be divided with one set trained with Cooper’s Rules and the other set trained with the NRA rules.
The two groups would then be set out into the firearms world for a complete count of accidents, negigent discharges and near misses.
Only then would you be able to claim that one group of rules is “better”.
The two groups would then be set out into the firearms world for a complete count of accidents, negigent(sic) discharges and near misses.
Only then would you be able to claim that one group of rules is better.
From the study, the decision to depart from Cooper rules took place. Use whatever rules you want when you shoot, but don't presume they are When you try to teach others defective safety rules, you place their lives Of all the unsafe situations that I have ever been in it was always precipitated So much for rule one ! I made up my mind to never be on an unsafe range nor hunt with unsafe shooters. As I have attempted to explain before on numerous occasions,
the study that you call for took place twenty to twenty-five years ago.
It started with the NRA having used the Cooper rules for many years,
finding that the number of NDs had not declined, the NRA began a study
to make all shooting safer.
It was loud and personal, as Col. Cooper had been and as was a member of
the NRA board. He used all of his bullying power to prevent the adoption
of the current NRA rules. He took it very personally. In his pride, he
ignored the safety of others who would be killed and injured due to his rules.
The current NRA safety rules were not adopted until the NRA board of directors
were convinced over the loud and bullying objections of Col. Cooper.
safe to teach to others.
and well-being at great risk.
by a P.O.S.T. Instructor. They would wheel around and sweep everyone behind them.
When called on the issue of safety, the response was always "the gun is unloaded"
And I attempted to explain to you that a study in the number of ND had to be accounted for in both groups.
This will be the second time I had asked you for this study that took place. Can you site a link to this?
As far as the bullying tactics of Col. Cooper, he wasn’t bullying anyone. That was his natural demenor even if you asked him what time it was.
Well, since we’ve hijacked this thread anyway, maybe we can get to closure on at least one point: the much-discussed, but hard to find study that compares ND rates between novice users trained using the API rules, and those trained using the “new” NRA rules. If such a study exists, I for one would be most appreciative of any pointer in its direction. That wouldn’t be dispositive, but it would certainly be a big deal.
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