McCain favors boarding NKorean ship

AP ^ | 2009-06-21

[MWS]

I must respectfully disagree.

North Korea is not a “sovereign nation.” True sovereignty requires legitimacy, and the government of North Korea is not legitimate. Legitimate governments govern by the consent of the governed and respect the implicit human rights of those they govern, at least to some degree. North Korea does neither - it is a rogue state that exists purely as a result of its ability to hold the North Korean populace hostage by force.

The same was true for Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi regime and the same is true for the Iranian ayatollahs. Illegitimate regimes have no legitimacy and thus can NEVER be considered sovereign. When they act in ways which potentially infringe on truly legitimate and sovereign nations, those nations have a right to preemptively step in and end it before real damage is done. We have a right to step in and prevent a bully who has threatened to shoot our friends from even loading his gun.

Appeasing dictators and affording them the rights of sovereign nations has never worked and has always led to unnecessary bloodshed.

[ari-freedom]

“What happens if NK tells the US that it feels intimidated by our superior forces and demands that we give up certain types of weapons and ships? I’m pretty sure their twisted minds see their interests in terms of “principles of freedom and morality.””

I don’t care what those those friggin commies think. I believe in moral absolutes. They are evil and they want to screw over the entire world. It’s not PC and it’s not ‘nuanced’ diplomatic thing to say but it is the reality we face.

[plain talk]

Nothing you said made any sense.

So Senators are supposed to be quiet while "someone else is President". What's that all about?

You are "tired of policing the world"? We haven't been policing the world or we wouldn't be worrying about Iran and NK.

NK does not have the right to ship anything it wants if it threatens the security of the world. Just like you don't the right to do anything you want or transport anything you want if it threatens others.

[July4]

NK governance may not suit our democratic notions of sovereignty, but I think it does meet the commonly accepted requirements of authority, boundaries, etc.

We may not like these bully nations, but they're here to stay until they implode or their own people rise up and make some changes. Meanwhile, we need to strengthen our defenses and make it known that we'll defend ourselves and stand by our friends.

Walking softly and carrying a BIG stick implies that we'll have the good judgement to “ask permission to board” before stepping on the deck of another nation's vessels.

[mysterio]

I tend to doubt NK has nukes. If they did, they would be trying to hide the nukes, not gallivanting about declaring “we have nukes, no really, we do, we dare you to find them.” If I were in charge of NK, I would be figuring out a way to FEED the population before they revolt and rip out Kim Jong Il’s beating heart and put it on a stake at the edge of Pyongyang.

[MWS]

I can see where you are coming from. With that said, I simply cannot agree. Mere possession of authority does not make that authority legitimate, and a government without legitimate authority cannot be said to be legitimate and thus possesses no sovereignty. I don’t necessarily consider “democracy” as a prerequisite of the legitimacy of which I am speaking - European monarchies were legitimate yet clearly were not democratic. The difference is that they governed by implicit consent.

The American Revolution was fought in recognition of this principle. The British government had the requirements of authority, boundaries, etc. vis-a-vis the colonists but lacked legitimacy in those areas by virtue of abuses and lack of consent. Our founding fathers had a right to overthrow them by virtue of that lack of legitimacy in ruling over us, hence the Declaration of Independence. The British presence in the Americas had far more legitimacy than the North Korean government’s rule over its people.

Governments which do not recognize rights have no rights. I would like to see a peaceful resolution to this affair but I cannot in good conscience recognize or respect the sovereignty and privacy of a nation which refuses to recognize or respect the sovereignty and privacy of the people it rules over.

Were the roles reversed, North Korea would not hesitate for a moment to board our ship. They do not deserve dignity they are not willing themselves to extend. All they care about is power.